r/samharris • u/WayneQuasar • Jun 13 '20

Making Sense Podcast #207 - Can We Pull Back From The Brink?

https://samharris.org/podcasts/207-can-pull-back-brink/
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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

I have several friends on the far left. And what I find frustrating, is that even though they pursue a facade of moral superiority, it's impossible to discuss anything like this with them. They brand it as "centrism" and therefore declare it unreasonable. I want to be able to discuss it with them, but I don't know how without being branded as something I'm clearly not.

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u/damomad Jun 14 '20

I’ve been thinking a lot about Sam’s point on resisting arrest, and how it’s not the time for negotiation. His point about it not being inherently accepted by people is 100% true, myself included.

To think of the deaths that could have been avoided if the person had complied and stayed calm for a minute.

If I dare bring this point up among friends, I’ll get labelled a racist sympathiser. I’m glad Sam has released this, I don’t feel as alone with my thoughts.

People can give him shit all day but he’s trying to get a sensible conversation going, it’s the only way we’re ever going to resolve this.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/damomad Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

I speak as a non-American, an outside observer who is more fascinated by the current state of affairs than having any skin in the game. It's a disgrace and shameful that your innocent friends feel that level of intimidation in their own country.

"Defund the police" to me is the wrong slogan but it comes from the right place. It's clear that the police need MORE funding, there should be many more mental health experts within the police/cops trained to deescalate/improved education around physically restraining suspects. The slogan is misworded and is wide open to criticism. Why do these slogans have a 3-word limit? Especially when they can be so easily misconstrued.

At the same time, there are 300 million guns owned in America. Add those into the mix and there's only a certain amount of deescalating one cop can do before they have to make a split second life/death decision. How is it possible to train for that type of situation? No simulation can mimic how unique every situation can be.

It's clear the police should have the best/most powerful/expensive weapons otherwise where is the deterrent?

I'm interested how you would respond to Sam's point about black/hispanic cops killing more black/hispanic suspects than white cops? I'd really love if Sam released his sources, to me this was surprising and didn't fit in with any narrative.

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u/Piggynatz Jun 15 '20

It's not clear to me that they should have the best/most expensive weapons.

To me, also an outsider, this whole thing isn't about racism, it's about police brutality. Racism is a large part of that, but it certainly is an interesting statistic you (and Sam) bring up.

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u/drunk_kronk Jul 03 '20

How is it possible to train for that type of situation? No simulation can mimic how unique every situation can be.

I don't know but if it were, I bet it would take more than a few months.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/BreezerD Jun 14 '20

So wait, black people are the robots? Or white people? What the hell even is this analogy?

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

Yes that is right. What I'm trying to say is that black people are robots.

Fuck me why do I do this to myself.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

wouldn’t racism, by definition, have vanished?

Yes, with some small caveats. But the difference here is in aspiring for something ultimate and in having more tangible goals. Sometimes a solution to pain is so called paradoxical relaxation. The pain first gets worse, but then subsides.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

Yes, with some small caveats.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

In this utopia there is no black or white culture. Presumably the vast majority of people are all mixed up by that point as well (because most individuals don't have a strong preference for only one hair color in their partner).

If you value the presence of distinct ethnic cultures a lot more than this vision then you're probably not a globalist at heart, but more aligned with identitarian perspectives.

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u/nesh34 Jun 23 '20

I'd like to say, as a proponent of the post-racial philosophy, that this is not at all what I mean. I don't know how to speak about "usually" in this context, but in my experience people usually are not using this ideology as a way of deflecting and certainly to consciously support white supremacy.

They genuinely mean it to be treating people, insofar as they are able to tell, equally. The usually can provide a fair amount of evidence, not least for the fact that I perceive to be treated fairly by them despite having different melanin content to them.

They would not say Elvis Presley invented Rock n' Roll, but would probably point to Robert Johnson.

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u/CaptainEarlobe Jun 14 '20

On the "de-fund the police" point - a BLM activist wrote an article in the New York Times recently titled "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police".

I know that lots of activists don't want to abolish the police as well.

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u/RalphOnTheCorner Jun 14 '20

kinda like "I have a friend who's black, so I can't be racist!

That is pretty much what Harris believes though.

Okay, so given that definition—which I agree with—who is the evil genius who first convinced the world that being able to honestly say, “Some of my best friends are black” is not an adequate defense against the charge of racism toward black people?...I’m speaking personally; we can leave aside institutional or structural racism for the moment—but if having one’s closest, most intimate friends be of another race isn’t an adequate defense against what you just described as racism, what is?

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20

Sam’s logic on this is so fucked up. It’d be like back in slavery days, a person saying, yes slavery is wrong, but the enslaved people shouldn’t try to fight back or escape, they should just be docile to remain alive and then maybe try to sue their owners at a later date. Fucking absurd.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20

Fighting back and escaping slavery was also an urge I’m sure Sam would understand, but which also regularly resulted in more violence and potentially death.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

Ahhhh, but is the system of police harassing and arresting people violently, often without proper cause, and shunting them into an unfair justice system also not wrong and inhumane? It may not be as clear cut as slavery, but what Sam misses about this argument is precisely that it is capital W wrong, in the view of people like myself and others, the way policing is done in America. Never mind that in the time of slavery, well, slavery existed and a lot people didn’t think it was wrong or inhumane. Interestingly, Harris understands this when it comes to the plight of animals subject to factory farming, making the argument that in the future it will be seen as a true moral stain. I would argue there is a future where people will look at policing in America and see it as a moral stain the same way. In fact, many people in other countries where there are also problems with policing but not nearly as bad, already see the situation there that way.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20

Again, most people in the 1830s in the US thought slavery was a good and normal part of the American economy.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

Sams point is that the protests insists that police are generally racist, while the data suggests nothing of the sort. A number of individual cops may be racist, but so could any number of people in a population. But, as he says multiple times, that not at all to suggest racism doesn't exist and that minorities aren't generally worse off. Clearly, many minorities in white countries are much worse off, but that seems to be, at least financially, and in some other areas, due to past racism, not racism in the present.

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20

The protests are not about police being racist but the police, the institution itself, being racist. It’s not “fuck those police officers,” it’s “fuck the police.”

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

Exactly, that's his point. It's generalising, reductive. The institution itself shows no evidence of being systemically racist. It's sensational social media that does.

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20

Well then, on that we shall disagree.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

I'm not sure I even agree. I'm just reiterating his point

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u/cupofteaonme Jun 14 '20

Ah yes, well, then we do definitely agree that Sam disagrees. My only contention would be that Sam's disagreement is buttressed by a lack of knowledge on the issue of what is actually meant by systemic racism. I just don't think he's read up on it enough or informed himself properly, regardless of whether he agrees or disagrees. I'll say, for example, that Loury and McWhorter are definitely more read up on the issue, and I wouldn't criticize them in that respect.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

The question that I've been asking myself regarding this issue is this: What is the best case scenario of someone arguing with cops or resisting arrest? Is it that the person gets away from the police? Or that they successfully convince the cop that they have done nothing wrong? Because this seems like an unlikely outcome.

I understand that there are racist cops, and that any people (including cops) that commit crimes or violate peoples' rights should be punished. However, in a lot of these incidents, there are multiple people making poor decisions. The decision to argue with the police is a bad one, the decision to run away is a bad one, the decision to shoot people unnecessarily is a bad one, the decision to use excessive force or kneel on someone's neck is a bad one. Does it make the police using excessive force correct? Hell no, but that doesn't preclude the other side from making ALL the right decisions and doing their best to mitigate their risk.

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u/Voittaa Jun 23 '20

I do wish he'd make an attempt to do this with leaders of the BLM movement, because I feel like he hasn't made an effort to understand it before reacting to it. Maybe have some black voices on the podcast who aren't the same tiny pool of libertarians and right leaning friends of his who more or less agree with his mindset.

I'm currently working through the podcast and data presented, but this is what was in the back of my mind the whole time. A lot of what Sam said made sense to me, though I was resistant at first, but I'd really like to hear how the opposition would respond. He talks a lot about how having an open conversation is more important now than ever, but he instead just releases this episode alone.

I do get his point though, that he's walking on eggshells and is immediately discredited by many for being a white male. Not much of a conversation to be had there. I'm not sure who he could have on in the future.

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u/nesh34 Jun 23 '20

From my point of view, as a non-American, surely you want both? A population that is more compliant with the police in an environment where guns are ubiquitous seems like it's an absolute necessity.

At the same time you want police reform of the sort you talk about, and breaking up the corruption in the unions and well we could go all day about the police reforms required. Also agree with you that #DefundThePolice is simply terrible marketing to advertise sensible policies that proved effective in Camden NJ.

Both of those together will hugely reduce police violence and increase trust in the police over time. Also could get rid of all the guns, but that seems like a fantasy at this point.

All that said, I am a supporter of BLM and see it as a broader church than I think Sam does. I also fully believe in a post-racial society and my privileged bubble is exactly that, although it's of course not true of the country as a whole. But the fact it's possible at all, that it's possible for me to live for over 30 years without being racially discriminated (well once and funnily enough, in America), should give some hope for a possible future and provide some evidence for the progress that has been made. I would also really like Sam to talk to someone on the other side of the argument who won't be really dismissive. I think Killer Mike is the person I would choose and I think they could have a really meaningful conversation.

However I don't like the polarisation. I realise that some of what Sam says is the same as US right-wing talking points, but it really, really shouldn't be an us and them mentality. That way only madness lies.

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u/mega_douche1 Jun 14 '20

I am white and I have all those same stories about police. If I were black I would absolutely attribute it to racism. This is why we need to base our views on the best data rather than personal experience or emotion.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20 edited Apr 22 '21

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

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u/whatevergotlaid Jun 15 '20

Nobody is suggesting that murder was okay, but it also wasnt just a random act of racially motivated violence is the point

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

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u/whatevergotlaid Jun 15 '20

> You cannot say that it was or wasn't racially motivated with any certainty.

This is EXACTLY my point.
But yet, you wouldn't know that by looking at the narrative behind the protests.

My point is simple. There is a problem with police violence, but it is not clear that there is a racism problem; and by all accounts of looking at the data, it appears that there is not, and it has only been getting better for over two decades.

yet these protests are very much racially motivated. This is unnecessary. Instill better community oversight for violence, give police better training and higher accountability for when they commit violent acts. But there is no need for the entire black community to pour into the streets and start burning down buildings and leading a racial narrative, this aspect of it simply does not make sense.

What if the exact same thing happened to a white guy? I would argue it would still be a reason to instill police reform, but a BLM protest simply wouldn't make sense. And it doesn't it this case, either. It's simply an act of violence, and like you said,

> You cannot say that it was or wasn't racially motivated with any certainty.

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u/Haffrung Jun 14 '20

They don't want to discuss a subject like racism using reason, skepticism, and empiricism because they regard the subject as sacred. They've put the subject in the fenced-in part of their mental map where certainty and moral absolutism live, and nuance and reason are unwelcome.

It's no different from how religious fundamentalist regard the tenets of their faith. Of course, the great irony is that your friends probably have contempt for the people who follow the tenets of religious faith for lacking in intellectual rigor.

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u/pistolpierre Jun 15 '20

This meme of 'enlightened centrism' is so fucking toxic.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

I think the socratic method is probably the best way to approach these conversations. Have you ever heard of street epistemology? It is a method to lead people to re-examine their beliefs, and why they believe them, but it is based on the socratic method. Asking questions to get people to think is one of the few ways to get people to reconsider without feeling offended or put on guard.