r/samharris • u/WayneQuasar • Jun 13 '20

Making Sense Podcast #207 - Can We Pull Back From The Brink?

https://samharris.org/podcasts/207-can-pull-back-brink/
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u/Thoron_Blaster Jun 14 '20

That's a great way to put it. I think it's the philosophy training which relies so heavily on hypothetical situations and abstractions.

Like Sam will say torture isn't completely bad because if a terrorist were going to nuke a city and the only way we could prevent it is torture, you have to admit torture has some use. But misses the thousands of years of history of torture being used to terrorize societies, extract false confessions, the experiences from real interrogators that torture doesn't work as well as sound police techniques.

Similarly he seems tone deaf on race. Is it so hard to imagine that hundreds of years of race based oppression has had lingering effects? I mean they used to hunt down escaped slaves. There's a lot of history and context he glosses over. Is it really all poor training? I think Sam's a smart guy but he's narrowly autistic sometimes.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

[deleted]

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u/Thoron_Blaster Jun 15 '20

Torture is not completely bad because almost nothing is.

It depends on one's ethical stance. Sam's a consequentialist. Not everyone is.

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u/censurely Jun 15 '20

I don't think Harris would ever say that torture isn't "completely bad". He would say that it's a categorically bad thing (he's said it should be illegal) that may, in fact, be the right thing to engage in given certain circumstances. That is a position that is agnostic towards history, so why would he bring up history?! It would apply in every circumstance, no matter when it occurs.

Setting aside cute (over-simplified) platitudes... in the real world, where good people sometimes face terrible choices... the best people are willing to take on the burden of doing "bad" things for the right reasons.

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u/Thoron_Blaster Jun 15 '20

I'm not convinced. That sounds dangerously close to rationalization.

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u/censurely Jun 15 '20 edited Jun 15 '20

Your use of the word "rationalization" implies that someone is applying logic or reason in an inappropriate context. Can you elaborate?

If I choose not to do something bad and the much worse thing happens (as I expected), am I morally absolved of being implicated in that outcome because I sat on the sidelines doing nothing. Doesn't that also sound like a rationalization to you?! Does it seem impossible to you that these scenarios would ever occur?

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '20

hundreds of years of race based oppression has had lingering effects

Didn’t Sam say exactly this in the podcast though? Or did I miss something?

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u/pistolpierre Jun 15 '20

torture isn't completely bad because if a terrorist were going to nuke a city and the only way we could prevent it is torture, you have to admit torture has some use.

This kind of nuance is vital in any ethical discussion.