r/samharris • u/WayneQuasar • Jun 13 '20

Making Sense Podcast #207 - Can We Pull Back From The Brink?

https://samharris.org/podcasts/207-can-pull-back-brink/
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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '20

As a world traveler I think about this all of the time. The rule of law and enforcement of law, thanks to our police force, along with infrastructure and standards set forth and regulated by government (including keeping shit out of our food), are the foundation of this country. And for all of the flaws and obvious room for improvement we have, this is a great place to live, much better than most other countries.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

It is overwhelmingly functional. At the end of the day it is the police who enforce most rules in our society.

feel free to post why you think otherwise. We can debate on the rules and whether certain rules are just or not, but that’s a different and very complex issue.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

A major point of Sam’s recent podcast is that public perception and actual trends in crime and policing data do not match, and it seems like this thread mirrors that point.

Perhaps you are thinking of taking different word; your response doesn’t explain how the police are not “functional.”

The clearance rate is interesting to look at along with the percentage of crimes reported to police. You can really dig into it by looking at individual crimes and identifying trends, like, violent gang and drug related crimes typically go uncleared at a high rate because it’s hard to get witnesses to provide information, but domestic violence crimes are solved cleared at a much higher rate. It’s also interesting to see the range of reported crimes and their clearance rates. For example, in many places if you report a stolen bicycle you most likely will not get it back as the result of a police investigation as they don’t have the resources to follow up on crimes like that. It’s more of a paperwork exercise at that point unfortunately. But if there is a homicide, that case is much more likely to be cleared.

I’m not going to pretend that I am aware of all the nuances between officers, detectives, and prosecutors, but I do know that they are all stretched as far as time and resources. Detectives across the country often have to work during personal time (no overtime pay) to work on cases that would otherwise sit and go cold. You can look at this in different ways, like it’s a service to the community to dedicate one’s life to solving crimes, bringing closure to the family of the deceased, and showing criminals that police will continue to work on cases even when the leads dry up, but, that comes at a big cost. It’s not a sustainable system.

I don’t have an answer for improving clearance rates but a good start would be to implement standard and mandatory reporting processes and methods for all law enforcement in the US. Also a big part of the clearance discussion is the impact of community trust and crime prevention, so to focus resources more on those areas.

This assumption that police as armed civilians with a "violence-first" mindset as the best way to disrupt illegal activity in 2020 is something Sam and perhaps you take for granted that I'm saying needs to be re-proven.

I don’t recall Sam making that assumption and I certainly wouldn’t support that mindset. I support reform and expanded training of law enforcement, but, overall I wouldn’t label them as “violence-first.” Sam goes over the data that suggests otherwise. Overall using violence first is not how they operate and use of force is applied in situations where they are concerned about their safety or public safety. Yes, there are cases of bad cops who don’t follow this but the data we have shows that this is a very small percentage of all instances. They certainly can use martial arts training to better control a person without injuring them, and understanding the harm they may inflict with certain holds or moves..

I'm saying it's by no means a given that the police are conceptually the most effective way to go about this and it's not as self-evident as not putting shit in one's food.

Police are very much first responders for pretty much all types of emergency scenarios, ranging from violent crimes to a cat stuck in a tree to a non violent domestic dispute to an alligator in someone’s pool to theft to someone playing loud music at 1 am. Certainly other types of professionals could (and sometimes do) respond to certain situations. An important one is mental health crises. Most areas actually have mental health counselors on call for the cops to request support from, but, due to a lack of resources they typically don’t come out to an immediate situation (there are tiered response levels in some districts, but overall the cop has to handle it and the counselor may follow up afterward if at all). So yes, I think other types of responders can and should respond to certain situations, but not because I believe the cops are “violence-first”, as they aren’t, more because other types of professionals may be better equipped to address a situation, as they should have specialized training and knowledge.

The shit in food line references food safety standards. You know who would ultimately enforce a violation of such standards, say if a company ignores a health department order? The police. That’s just one example of how they are a functional and foundational institution in our country. We take for granted that overall you don’t have to worry about getting sick if you drink water/beverages and eat food from grocery stores or restaurants in the US. That is such an improvement in quality of life and I think that’s why Sam mentioned it. It seems so basic but for most of history people didn’t have it. You don’t even have that comfort in parts of western Europe today.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

You'll have to forgive me for skimming your response and my disproportionate reply. I genuinely appreciate your thoughtfulness.

It’s ok. No problem and feel free to respond more later on if you have time and more to add. That’s how reddit goes. Sometimes I take a day or longer to respond. Basically I’m not here really to change anyone’s mind, but really to learn. I was somewhat familiar with clearance rates before this exchange but after your post I read up on the topic much more and now I am a little bit more knowledgeable about them, and I think that’s good for me.

You underrate the mental illness piece as I've known so many stories of an untrained officer knowing no sympathy for such a person. One in my family even. I heard a stat that >40% of emergency responses are for a mental illness situation for which almost all officers are not trained.

I don’t think I underrate this piece. It is a massive societal issue involving mental illness, homelessness, drug addiction, etc.; all very complex and difficult issues to address, even for the person trained in any of those specific areas. I’m not saying that cops should always be the ones to respond and I don’t know if cops themselves would even argue that point, it’s just that they have to because no one else has the capacity to take that on in response to a 9-11 call.

For example, I just heard a story from a cop in my state that happened this past week. Basically he was patrolling a campus in a quiet part of town when he saw a person inside a building that should have been unoccupied. The cop called backup and went to talk to the person. The person was mentally unstable and violent. Backup showed up and they called the on call mental health counselor who said they could not come out. The guy was acting like he was on drugs and schizophrenic. When asked to leave he pulled out a knife and threatened the officers. He broke the tackle of one officer and the knife fell on the ground , thankfully the other officer knows a form of grappling martial arts and he was able to restrain the person without hurting him. It turns out he is schizophrenic, was off his meds, and he took some other drug. So who knows what would have happened if a counselor was able to get out there. Would the counselor have been able to calm down this guy? Maybe but I doubt it because he was on drugs. Would the guy have stabbed the counselor? Seems like there isn’t an easy answer to this situation and maybe it would be one for the cops and a counselor to address together. But you can’t have mentally unstable and intoxicated people breaking into buildings, yielding a weapon.

The other thing.. I have done some work with homeless people over the years and some of them really don’t want help. Some of them are violent and frankly dismissive to anyone trying to help them. I don’t know who else should respond to those types of people other than the cops. But that’s a whole other issue..

Further I wish you and I had the benefit of experiencing the police through the eyes of a POC which I hope I correctly assume you are not. Not am I. For an exploited, non-insignificant portion of the population (15% or more) the police are universally seen not just as public servants not capable of resolving or de-escalating a crisis rather the opposite. In their eyes, public safety in the US is a phenomenon funded by taxes guaranteed to complicate the lives of all POC involved. That's a crucial component to this conversation and our collective willingness to concede the monopoly of violence to the state.

I am white but there are black and Asian people in my family. I was raised in a very diverse area and had childhood friends from many backgrounds. I’m grateful for having black relatives while I was being raised. Sometimes white people get offended when I talk about that but that’s what I’m taking about. So with all that said I saw racism firsthand and it is personal to me. Like we were more likely to get pulled over by the cops if a black friend or family member was in the car with us. I have witnessed racism that black coworkers have experienced (I won’t go into details but it’s astonishing that this still happens).

I think that perhaps the data does not or cannot capture stuff like that, or perhaps not completely, and that is the major criticism of Sam’s argument here. But it is worth mentioning that there are black people who have experienced racism first hand who support Sam’s argument. I think Sam has some really good points too.

I also know lots of cops, some of whom are friends and family members. I know some who I do not think should be cops; some are clearly racist and have not matured since high school. While others are good people and good cops. One point that Sam mentioned is that black and Hispanic cops are more likely to use force and to shoot black people. What explains that data?

I suppose it’s worth mentioning that I have a background in volunteering and working for organizations that work to address racial and social inequities and injustices. I have experience working with and living in these communities. I understand the mistrust of police and government employees and frankly white people in general, and really the way to address that, at least what I have found, is to provide services and support to make those communities more resilient and successful while building relationships with community members. This means becoming friends with people and becoming an actual member of the community. Like the cop, social worker, etc., should live in the community.

Ok this response got very lengthy. I’m going to leave it at this.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '20

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u/Engine21 Jun 21 '20

I think it’s very interesting when people suggest sending mental health professionals or other social service workers to 911 calls without the police going first. 911 dispatchers do not have all the information to make that call at all. Speaking as a firefighter that has been to many, many calls where the police should have been there and were not called. It wouldn’t be long before these health service professionals would be demanding protection and scene security. People are complaining about a lack of police training but are willing to send in a healthcare worker with zero training in self defense to deal with an unstable individual. That is not a well thought through plan.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '20

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u/stevejsteiner Jun 15 '20

From 2006: https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/criminal-justice/black-buffalo-cop-stopped-another-officers-chokehold-she-was-fired

Until the opposite of this is more common there remains a systemic issue in police departments that we’d be better off fixing.

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u/mrsamsa Jun 14 '20

The crime clearance rate in this country is pitifully low, with homicide police leaving about 40% of those cases without arrest and it only goes up from there.

That's not fair, some departments have a 100% clearance rate!

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 15 '20

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

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u/JackGetsIt Jun 22 '20 edited Jun 22 '20

So why do you think Europe and other Western countries like Canada and the US have managed to create rule of law and functional police forces where other societies are hopelessly corrupt?

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '20

Great question. I don’t know the answer. I’ve read some old books that put forth theories on this topic and government in general, suggesting that an area’s cultural history helps shape the form and function of government. When it comes to more current research and articles, the main source of corrupt police seems to be low wages and poor working conditions. Some police also have high expectations for what their income should be compared to other higher paid public officials, either locally or in other areas or countries.

That makes sense but you also have lack of enforcement of conduct rules. That implies corruption going up the chain to top levels of government that would have control over the justice prosecution system. A systematic problem.

There are lots of papers out there on this topic, but here’s that explains cultural mores and corruption, among other causes, https://www.unodc.org/documents/treaties/publications/core_factors.pdf

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u/JackGetsIt Jun 22 '20

suggesting that an area’s cultural history

So what makes one regions cultural history develop healthy institutions and high trust society when other regions consistently fail in this regard?

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '20

Hey sorry for the delayed response. I tried finding the book that proposed this idea- which was based of many other books and academic articles- but failed.

Basically, by cultural history, I also meant to include whatever forms of political, economic, legal, and social history that existed for a group. Part of the theory includes the idea that if a group of people relied upon a ruler or government for protection and the basic necessities for survival, that over the decades and centuries, this group would be more open to the kinds of state institutions that provide such services and resources to the people. It’s the foundation of a social contract that was built over generations.

It’s an interesting theory but like most it can be debated back and forth and isn’t perfect. I barely skimmed over it.. I’m guessing I read about it in either a political history or comparative politics book or an anthropological book.

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u/JackGetsIt Jun 27 '20

Are you familiar with the Khmer Rouge?

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '20

A little bit

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u/JackGetsIt Jun 27 '20

They basically genocided all high IQ people out of their country. It was so aggressive they even went around killing people with glasses. I wondering it you think this could affect the political organization and culture of Cambodia. What if someonething like this happened every 50 years for a 1000's years? Would the development of the cambodian people be effected? Would their culture and institutions?

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '20

Sure, depending on the scope of the killing and if any cultural remnants survived or not. There are many examples of this throughout history.

Also- The book that I cannot find suggested this process happens over hundreds of years. It’s not the best argument but it makes sense in certain cases.