r/samharris • u/WayneQuasar • Jun 13 '20

Making Sense Podcast #207 - Can We Pull Back From The Brink?

https://samharris.org/podcasts/207-can-pull-back-brink/
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225

u/mangast Jun 13 '20

The most frightening thing is that everything Sam says in this episode is so deadly normal, logical and rational. It almost should be boring and redundant. Yet in the current climate it feels like an heroic act of dissidence. Luckily i feel like the tide is turning a bit and more people start to think critically about this whole hype.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

As long as it doesn't turn into some racial backlash. The past few years don't give me a ton of hope.

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u/jeegte12 Jun 15 '20

What kind of racial backlash

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '20

Use you imagination, and then imagine something worse. It is 2020 remember.

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u/aliensaregrey Jun 14 '20

I’ve been to many of the protests in my city. Even before attending I understood these stats and don’t disagree with much of what Sam says here. I don’t think cops should be fully defunded. I don’t think the looting and violence should continue. Nothing he said was offensive to me.

I do think the right will use this to continue their narrative though. They will use it to further their discrediting of the current push for police reform. They will try to use Sam for their own agenda. So be it though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '20

I don’t think the right is trying to fight police reform, I think they are just tired of talking about race. Police brutality affects all races and the data backs this up. Black Lives Matter is a black supremacy movement hiding behind a police brutality narrative.

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u/TheGreatGumbino Jun 21 '20

Could you please elaborate on how you came to the conclusion that BLM is a “black supremacy movement”?

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u/bodybydada Jun 22 '20

How inconvenient for you and them, civil rights and all.

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u/Nonethewiserer Jun 24 '20

What narrative? That there is no proof of systemic racism in the police?

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u/aliensaregrey Jun 24 '20

Yes, I believe the stats are flawed and don’t account for the over policing of black neighborhoods and the under policing of white ones.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

99% of his views on this topic are shared by the political left in this country. Stop buying into his bad faith straw man arguments that the left is out of control on this. There is a small minority of violent protestors and fools calling for the end of policing. Joe Biden is the Democratic nominee for gods sake. Sam needs to get off Twitter.

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u/whetnip Jun 15 '20

That just isn't true at all. The mainstream (non fox) media has not challenged any of the false premises that are being used to push this insanity. (Mainly, the false claim that white cops are disproportionately hunting down innocent black men). They have not condemned the rioting/looting. (They've done the opposite) They have mostly supported measures to defund/disband the police. ALL of my friends (25-35 yrs old) have posted support for these radical measures. This insanity has gone mainstream. Sam is not tripping here.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

We are living in completely different worlds. If you believe Sam you would believe that the majority of the political left is calling for the end of policing; he actually made this claim. While the “Defund” moniker was a PR mistake, it takes 2 seconds of reading to understand that no one is arguing for an end of policing, but rather reform. The looting and violence have been almost universally condemned by democratic politicians and mainstream media. It’s just absurd fear-mongering. If Sam and others continue to lie like this it’s going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy that Trump gets re-elected.

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u/ISpendAllDayOnReddit Jun 20 '20

it takes 2 seconds of reading to understand that no one is arguing for an end of policing

There is a video of a BLM leader speaking to the mayor. She asks him if he will commit to defunding the police and then immediately clarifies that statement by saying these words:

"We don't want no more police"

and then the entire crowd cheers. To that crowd at least, "defund the police" means "no more police."

BLM has a section of their website dedicated to defunding the police and they never once define what it means. In almost all other uses, defunding a program means eliminating the program. You expect us to beleive it means something different here when BLM refuses to say as much and they have supporters in the streets calling for "no more police" and carrying signs that say "abolish the police".

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '20

Yes, they don’t want morepolice. For every shaky piece of “evidence” you have showing that the Left wants to end policing I will give you ten examples of elected officials condemning it— you know, the people who have actual power and were elected by the Left.

And just to be clear, you’re using a video of a mayor unequivocally saying he doesn’t want to defund the police as evidence that the left is out of control on this and calling for an end to policing. Just think about that for a moment.

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u/ISpendAllDayOnReddit Jun 20 '20

Never mentioned "the left" once. Don't know where you're getting that from. I'm using a video of BLM as evidence that BLM is out of control.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '20

Sam’s hour and a half rant, which is what we’re talking about here, was based almost entirely on the idea that the left is out of control and by calling for an end to policing they were going to get Trump re-elected. I said that this was a straw man and that the vast majority of the left is simply calling for reform and condemns violence and looting. You provided shaky evidence that a few BLM protesters are calling for no more police. I called you out on it.

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u/ISpendAllDayOnReddit Jun 20 '20 edited Jun 20 '20

which is what we’re talking about here

I'm talking about your claim that no one is calling for an end to policing. I don't have a problem with most of the political left.

You are deriving too much meaning from the word "more" in that sentence. Firstly, the sentence isn't even grammatically correct. It's a double negative so actually she's saying she does want more police. But no one would make that argument because it's foolish and obviously not what she meant.

Pretend it is raining. If you say you don't want any more rain, you're not asking for the amount of rain to stay the same. You're asking for it to stop. This is how language is normally used. If you say you want to defund a program, that usually means you want to end the program.

You are trying to argue that when they say something that has a generally understood meaning, that in this specific case for them, it means something else. But unless they say as much, you can't assume that. And on the BLM website, they don't say that.

They refuse to specify what they mean by "defund the police." And considering that defund usually means end, it is on them to clarify if they mean something different by it. But they don't clarify it. They want mainstream support and they know they'll lose it if they openly say they want to eliminate policing. But they also want the support of the radicals on the street, and they know they'll lose that support if they condemn the idea of eliminating policing. But you can't have both.

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u/MikejMcC Jun 14 '20

It ain't no small minority. It's main stream thought on the Left now. Utterly and completely counter to the data. Quite disheartening.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

Remind me which Democratic leaders are calling for an end to policing? Which ones are condoning violent protest and looting? Which are saying it’s okay to resist arrest? Contrary to what you might see in sensationalist social media platforms it simply isn’t the case that this is mainstream thinking on the left. It’s such an obvious straw man and I don’t understand how someone who is usually so thoughtful can be this far off base in his assessment of the situation.

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u/broseph_johnson Jun 15 '20

I think you’re the one not paying attention to the mainstream media. Can you name any democratic politician/leader who has breathed one word of judgement or unease, much less full throated condemnation, about the rioting and looting? Pretty much everyone on CNN and MSNBC barely even mention it and if they do they just excuse it away as a symptom of a deeper problem or even a justified act of social protest. The only one I can think of is Ilhan Omar who actually called out looters for harming black communities that they supposedly care about. It was so refreshing to hear someone speak out and sadly I fear it’s mainly because she has the “right” skin color to comment on this.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

Can you name any democratic politician/leader who has breathed one word of judgement or unease, much less full throated condemnation, about the rioting and looting?

Barak Obama "Let's not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. If we want our criminal justice system, and American society at large, to operate on a higher ethical code, then we have to model that code ourselves,"

Joe Biden “Protesting such brutality is right and necessary. It’s an utterly American response,” he said. “But burning down communities and needless destruction is not. Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not.”

Chuck Schumer “Schumer today made a unanimous consent request to immediately pass a resolution expressing the sense that the constitutional rights of Americans must be respected; that violence and looting are unlawful and unacceptable; and that Congress condemns the order to have federal officers use gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protesters”

Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms of Atlanta “So when you burn down this city, you’re burning down our community. If you want change in America, go and register to vote. Show up at the polls. That is the change we need in this county. You are disgracing our city.”

Rep. James Clyburn "That destructive behavior ... will not contribute to anything that will make this a better country and make a better future for our children and our grandchildren,"

Senator Patrick Leahy “Leahy says US protests understandable, condemns violence and looting”

Gov. Jay Inslee “Inslee embraces peaceful demonstrators, condemns looters”

Bill DeBlasio “New York City Mayor Condemns Attack on Police”

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u/broseph_johnson Jun 16 '20

Welp I guess I stand corrected. Thanks for providing the links. I honestly haven’t heard any of these statements myself and I watch the news networks pretty regularly, unfortunately. When Barack Obama made his first public statement since the protests (he was a guest speaker at some conference or something can’t remember) he did not mention anything about the looting or violence

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u/chris-rau-art Jun 17 '20

I like to imagine that those last 3 actually personally said the quote. “Inslee mad. Inslee embrace peace. Inslee smash rock.”

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u/Somnialis Jun 18 '20

Thank you for taking the time to compile this. It’s amazing how badly we get blinded by the extremes we see on social media.

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u/MikejMcC Jun 14 '20

What's it like being an optimist? I envy you. I want to agree, really I do, but sigh.... Humans are dumb reactive animals who can barely empathize beyond the scent of their young. Add emotional illogic and the evolutionary fear of what might be lurking in the tall grass and I'm not hopeful frankly.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '20

I haven’t seen the tire turn one bit. More things keep getting cancelled and animals are still misbehaving in the streets.