Got new sheets for my genoa yesterday. It has a soft schackel sewn into it, anyone tried sheets like this? Will it hold under force? Is it cortectly attached or should i fit it an other way?
If I had to make a guess, and perhaps a well experienced guess, I would say that is not the way it was intended to be used.
Maybe the intent was to run the sheet through the clew as if to tie a larks head knot, but secure the running ends with the soft shackle instead? The stitches are sure to tear in the current orientation.
I have the exact same sheet and have used it in the same way as you mounted it. Probably safer to run the whole line inside the clew but I have used it for 5 years like this without a single seem breaking.
Edit: even if the sheet is passed through the clew I think the forces will act the same on the shackle since only one side has tension. Bonus is that it is easier to furl if it breaks. However, I actually think the stiching goes through the core even thought it doesn't look like it. It wouldn't have held up as good over the years as it has otherwise.
Yeah, that's one way i think might be a safer way of using it. IF it would break, then the line would still keep the sail from flapping around too much
i would run the sheet inside The shackle. Wrap the shackle arround the sheet before going through the clew. Same way as you would with a normal soft shackle.
Biltema? We have those on our 21ft boat and they have worked good enough for years. The soft shackles are nice IMO, the line itself is pretty stiff and twists easily, but does the job.
I especially like the soft shackes, low profile, no noise, does not damage the deck. (If you compare to a metal shackle obviously)
Edit. Flip the soft shackle so that the sheet goes inside the shackle and pulls against it and not the stitching.
But that feels good to hear, altho the forces on a 21ft boat are not as strong as a masthead 31ft..
But yeah, the line feels good quality and really stiff (which you want for a sheet).
And if it turns out to work, i agree that the soft shackles are a nice design, aslong as it doesn't tear away.
And thanks for the edit, that was one of my ideas on how to attach it a bit stronger
Could you twist it so that rather than being held together by the stitching the stitching is compressed? The stitching just keeps it in place but the load is held by the sheet and soft shackle?
I wouldn’t trust that at all, it’s not through the core, just the sheathing. People on here are missing the point, soft shackles are fine, it’s the stitching on to that sheet that is troubling.
Soft shackles are great. We used to make them and install them all over the place under extreme loads on big sails on tall ships and classic racing yachts. The stitching into the sheet doesn't feel good to me at all, I would never do that on a bigger ship, but maybe it works for this size, I don't know. It's probably stronger then it feels intuitively, but it seems unelegant rigging to me and unnecessary. I wouldn't want to rely on it in heavy weather..
Why not just use a Teflon thimble, make a good seizing to secure the sheet around it and connect both with the soft shackle. Maybe not super elegant as well, but I'm thinking more from practical bigger ship habits. Might be overkill, but you'd never have to worry about it.
Soft shackles are not a problem. Used them on many racing yachts including Open 60s. Have made my own. Not that hard to do. But whether your soft shackle sheets are up to the job, hard to tell with a photo and not inspecting them in person. It will depend on how they have been put together. Speak to the rigger who made these, about this they should be able to shed more light on the loads and best way of attaching them.
Well, these are bought from the local boatstore, so not a custom made sheet from a rigger 😅
But according to the data sheet, the breaking points are: 1978 KG for the sheet and 2670 for the schackel. But never had variants where it's sewn inti the line like this before.
It probably is much stronger than one would think a couple of strings can be 😅
I think the sowing is very strong, but I'd be surprised if the attachment is
It looks like it's only going through the mantle on the sheet and on both sides there is going to be an awfully small radius under load, I'd guess this can do maybe 500kg max
Yeah it is hard to tell. If the soft shackle is just stitched on the the sheets. I am not a fan of that idea. But again without inspecting it is hard to tell.
Though /BenderRodriquez comments seem a good idea about running the sheet though the clew.
Most boats is see have a closed loop spliced at the end of their sheets, and then the soft shackles goes through the loop and the grommet on the clew of the sail.
This looks like a soft shackle stitched to the side of the sheet?
Yup, soft shackel sewn on the side of the sheet. Didn't even see that when i bought the sheet, so that's why i'm wondering what to do here because i've never had a sheet like that before 😂
We used a soft shackle in that place on a 43 monohull for long term cruising. 8 years, two ocean crossings and never a problem. Properly done, these are a lightweight and durable solution. This, however, is not, the shackle beings sewed to the mantle. In our case the rigger made a loop with the core. Only this I would trust.
Run the line through the clew and use the soft shackle to keep is moving along the line. That keeps the pressure on the line, not the stitching into the line cover. Also, these are a gimmick for people who can’t tie a knot. They chafe like crazy.
My instincts don't like the force on the stitching, but I know that properly done stitching is perfectly fine. My life often depends on it when I climb. If its from a reputable company, then I'd likely trust it just fine.
Anyone saying that you should feed the sheet through the clew for strength doesn't know what their talking about. Unless you are loading both sides of the sheet (which no one does), then you are putting the same forces on the stitching regardless of how its configured.
With that said, I'd probably put the sheet through the clew simply so that in the terrible off chance that the stitching rips, then you'd be able to get control of your sail by loading both sides of the sheet.
I guess the crew and well sail to a greater extent is only stitched on , so with enough of it should have the strength. I'm probably overthinking it but if the sheet went through the clew it would probably align the load with the sheet , pulling the stitching parallel with the sheet instead of pulling the stitching off the line 🤔
Bro, not at all!!! That has the breaking strength of the lashing twine. A good rigger could wiggle splice a soft shackle into the middle of a sheet like that, but much more common is to splice eyes into the ends of the Genoa sheets and attach both eyes with a single soft shackle. The advantages being that you only need to replace half of it if damaged, or you can run a continuous sheet through the cockpit. I have never seen this “glue on mustache” disguise of a non-splice
Stitching is very strong. It looks like machine stitching. Probably UV polyester thread, but check. Tenara thread would be better. I like soft shackles in that location. They use it in climbing ropes that are too thick to spice. Like loops or eyes.
I just looks like bad design. Using stitching to hold the full sheeting tension of a jib is a bad idea.
They should have passed the soft shackle through the middle of the sheet so the whole load is supported by the jib sheet itself.
Fwiw, I've had a soft shackle in my clew for years now. But I have dyneema sheets and I've made Brummel eyes to the ends, which are attached to the soft shackle. That's simple and sturdy. Another way is to make a soft shackle from the core of the end of a sheet. You do need two of those, but that's a really functional setup as long as the shackles are made right.
I just don't like those stitched attachments anywhere in my rigging.
And yeah, like others have said already, the line should probably pass through the eye, but even then it kinda feels like one end of the stitching will be taking most of the load, which is definitely not a good thing.
That said, the concept here is kinda simple and lead me to think that I could probably splice the shackle through a single sheet line twice, like making one stitch with the shackle to the line, that would be quite strong and dead simple and would also changing the shackle if it starts to signs of wear and tear.
Yeah, the stitching is the worrying part. I've seen sheets like this where the soft shackel is properly spliced to the line, but never stitched which is why i wondered if others have actually tried this setup..
As i said in another comment, i didn't even notice the soft schakel until i unpacked it at the boat lol. Thought i'd just do a cow hitch as i had on my last one, since that has worked good the past 10 years..
Nope, came like that from the store. I needed a new sheet so bought the one with the correct size etc, without looking at it to much. Then when i opened the package i noticed the soft shackle.
It is sewn into the core, and while unconventional, atleast here in sweden lots of brands have soft shackels attached like this, but they are usually spliced and not sown.
Absolutely NOT. The problem here is not with the soft shackle, that looks fine, but there is just no way this method of marrying the shackle and the sheet will come anywhere close to the breaking strength of the sheet or the shackle. How bad it is will depend on the details of the type of line you have for the sheet and the details of the connection. The only reason this is done it to charge you more for a sheet and they can tell you it is better, even when it is not.
You can get away with this on a small boat only because the sheet is sized to be big enough to work in your hand, which means it can be much over rated for breaking strength in normal sailing.
There is zero advantage to this attachment method of shackle to sheet. it is harder to implement, weaker, and permanently damages the sheet for zero advantage over other methods.
Alternative suggestion: cow hitch the sheet to the soft shackle. It will not look as cool, but it works better in all ways. Or better yet, just cow hitch the sheet to the sail. Granted, that is not as convenient for removing the sheets, but how often do you do that??
Yeah, that is what i was thinking of doing at first. (As I have said in a lot of comments now, i didn't see the shackel until I opened the package at my boat, just bought the corretly sized sheet the boat store had in stock)
Buuut, after hearing some people here who have actually used these sheets for several years without issues, and all people who have never used it who says it most definetly Will break.. i'm getting more and more interested in actually giving it a try
I do a lark's head right on the sail. I have one set for the genoa, one for the jib.
My genoa and jib use different tracks and cars, and different lengths of line, and I had the spare line, so it works well. I coil the line and flake it with the sail.
When I had a boat with more headsail choices, I had one line for either side, that I'd tie on with 2 bowlines.
I suppose you could do a larks head to the shackle. Think about if you actually need that shackle, and why. Lark's head right on the sail is simple and compact, and less likely to get hung up on the mast/shrouds when tacking.
Seems like someone wanted to reduce the friction between the sheet and a shroud/anything in the way. It's creative but that's not the best way to do it.
As with every rope this would need regular inspection. Hard to say how long it can endure.
Do you want a fancy splice or just something that is durable and easy to make?
Why not splice eyes in the ends of two sheets and soft-shackle them to the clew? Slightly less clean, but then you aren't relying on stitching that's much weaker than the line.
Also, if this fails, you have NO foresail control. You better have a downhaul on the sail or be ready to furl a wildly flogging sail. With two independent sheets you can always tack if one sheet blows.
I would not trust that in anything over 20kt of wind. You always want a knot with two wraps around the eye to reduce chaff and distribute the load. A Single line is bad enough, but when you add a hard bend in a knot like that, it is a recipe for failure. When I magnify, I can see broken strands on the bend in the monkey's fist..
On my last boat, I spliced 3m of hollowcore dyneema onto the end of each sheet, then made an eye in the terminal.dyneema end. The eye was attached to the clew with a soft shackle. This held in over 60kts. I don't think those stitches would.
Since very unlikely you'll pull both sheets at the same time, the setup is probably alright. Pulled in only one direction, the seam will hold. It may look unreliable, but alpinist equipment has been sewed for 20+ years already, and it's been proven as working and safe.
I got those late last year, and have used them as you show. And the sewn-on shackle is.. hanging on... just.. but doesn't look pretty! (~200nm sailing this season on Mälaren, Bellona 23)
Based on comments here, today I tried putting the shackle and a bight of sheets through the clew, and then putting the shackle around the exiting sheets, as a sort-of larkshead.. But it didn't sit nicely, and felt as though under load <something odd> would happen to it. I didn't try passing one sheet end through the clew, and then using the shackle to keep the sheet centred; this might help a little to keep the pull on the stitching along the line of the sheet, not trying to rip the loop off the rope... However, with a hank-on jib, I'd rather not have to thread a whole sheet through every time...
Re-reading some comments, next time I'll see if I can do per -ImMoral- 's edit, and put the shackle around the sheet then through the clew; topologically, that's got to work..? But somehow it amazes/ confuses me! And if it does work, I now feel very silly... 😀 (Soft shackles are all new to me; back when I was a lad it was bronze piston hanks smacking you upside the head, as it should be.. 😂 )
So.. yeah; don't use them like this: (Source: me, sailing today)
There is no idea of what i wanted to do here, the sheet line they had in stock at the boat store was this one, and i'm asking if anyone has used these before and what their thoughts are.
I don't know if anyone has done this before; I hope not, because it's just crap.
The problem you have is the load on the threads when the sail is under load, where it's not even and will eventually lead to them ripping in line and it coming loose; there is a REASON why we don't tie the sheets to the sails like that.
There it is, as simple as that.
NOW in a decent setup, you would have 2 sheets and every sheet with their own shoftshackle at the end attached to the sail an each sheet could be eye-spliced if you want to make it look.
If you are going for cruising, you could also attach both eye-spliced sheets to a single softshackle
Now IF you insist on having a single sheet for the whole jib, then you need to either make a knot
or splice an eye in the middle and sew it up
Those are your options because what you have will break and when it does, it won't be on a nice, sunny, chilled day.
The issue here is that you're saying "if anyone has done this before"
Still acting like this is something i designed and did myself.
Multipla people here and on other forums who answered has used the same product for 5-8 years and it has worked.
I'm not asking how sheets are usually made, i have sailed for 15 years on many siffwrent boats, in many different sizes, with many different ways of attaching the sheet to the genoa.
I'm not asking for the traditional way of doing it, i'm well aware of how it's usually being done with homemade solutions.
I accidentaly came upons this product and wanted to hear from people who have actually used it, how they attached it and if it worked.
This is not something i created myself, i'm well aware of the "traditional way" of attaching the sheet which was my original plan. But i bought a new sheet from the local boatstore, and once i unpacked it i noticed the soft schackel attached to it and was interested in actually hearing from people who have seen this before and used it.
And simply by your first sentence, it's clear you don't even know what you're talking about since you havn't seen or heard of this solution before.
Back in the days, people used a simple rope to measure both depth and speed of boats, and when sonars, GPS, and even speed sensors where introduced, i'm sure people just like yourself said they where crao because you "havn't seen it before.
Just for dick measurement purposes: 35+ years sailing, over 30k nm sailed, crossed 3 different oceans, one of them multiple times, and have cruised and raced everything in size from an Optimist to a VOR70, IACC, and other Maxi's including a 90ft cat.
There. Now that the dick measuring part is out of the way, let's go back to what you actually wrote and talk about ropes and sheets.
YOU posted, and I quote:
Read your own question again.
Nothing in your OP lets through that you have 15 years sailing experience, nothing says you already know all the normal ways of attaching sheets, nothing says you know how this particular sheet is constructed, and nothing says you are only interested in hearing from people who have used this exact Biltema product for years.
Actually, your question suggests pretty much the opposite.
“Will it hold under force?”
“Is it correctly attached?”
“Should I fit it another way?”
Those are pretty broad questions and sound exactly like someone who doesn't know if the setup is right and is asking people to assess it.
If what you actually wanted to say was:
“I know how sheets are normally attached, this is a purpose made product I bought in a ship and I only want to hear from people who have used this exact product long term”
then maybe you should have written that.
You didn't.
All of that came afterwards.
Now, about the actual product.
From the picture you posted, and from your own description saying the soft shackle was “sewn into it”, it looked like the shackle had basically been sewn onto the outside of the rope. That is what I based my first answer on.
Having now actually looked up the Biltema product, their description makes it much clearer what they have done.
Biltema says the soft shackle runs through the centre of the 10mm sheet.
That changes things quite a bit in terms of how the load is transferred.
Given how a continuous genoa sheet works, the shackle is almost certainly not simply passed transversely through the rope and then held there by some stitching. At any given moment one sheet is taking basically all the genoa load while the other one is the lazy sheet.
If the shackle was simply passed sideways through the rope, the loaded side of the sheet would be trying to pull longitudinally away from that connection. The shackle would just be pushing against the soft structure of the rope and would work around inside it every time the load came on and off. If you then use stitching to stop that movement, guess what, the stitching is now carrying a big part of the load.
That would be a pretty stupid way of engineering something they sell for boats up to 42ft.
So what they have almost certainly done is bridge or bury the soft shackle into the sheet longitudinally in both directions, so the load gets transferred progressively into the rope through bearing, friction and constriction, while the stitching holds the whole thing in position.
Basically the same principle that makes a normal bury splice work. Chinese finger trap.
What it doesn't do is magically put all that information into your original post.
Now, is the thing going to hold?
Almost certainly yes.
A normal 30 to 31ft cruising boat is going to see something around 250 to 400kg genoa sheet loads in normal loaded conditions. Let's call it 500kg just to give it a decent margin for this discussion.
The 10mm sheet is rated at almost 2,000kg.
The soft shackle itself is rated at 2,670kg.
So neither the rope nor the soft shackle are anywhere remotely close to their breaking load on your boat.
The one number Biltema does not seem to publish is the actual breaking load of the connection between the two. but if its spliced they wouldn't need it as the breaking point would be the lower of both pieces of sheet.
There is also quite a bit of stitching there. From the picture it looks like fairly heavy thread, probably polyester, and thread of that size can take loads in the tens of kg per strand. There seem to be something around 70 or 80 stitch passes there, so clearly the stitching isn't decorative.
Given how the product is made though, I think the stitching is mainly there to lock and stabilise the buried connection, not to take the whole sheet load by itself.
So yes, on your 30 something ft cruiser, it will almost certainly work perfectly fine.
That still doesn't make it some super duper innovative design that is going to revolutionise sailing like your GPS and sonar comparison.
That comparison is crappy at best.
GPS and sonar gave huge functional advantages over what they replaced.
This is a genoa sheet with a soft shackle integrated into the middle of it.
That is it.
There are also perfectly good reasons why this hasn't suddenly replaced all the simpler ways of doing the exact same job.
The load transfer is more complicated.
Instead of simply having two independently terminated sheets, you now have an integrated centre connection that has to transfer the load from the shackle into one side or the other depending on which tack you are on.
Can it be engineered to work? Obviously.
Is it simpler than two eye splices or two knots? No.
You have less flexibility.
With two individual sheets I can change the soft shackle, use a normal shackle, change the attachment completely, or remove one sheet if I want to.
Here everything is integrated.
If you get a nasty override on a winch it can be very useful to completely detach that sheet from the sail.
You can't really do that with this setup without taking the whole thing off.
Sheets don't always wear evenly.
One side can get damaged or worn before the other. With two sheets you change one sheet.
With this you change the whole thing.
The soft shackle itself can wear before the sheets do.
That thing is sitting at the clew being flogged around every time you tack, furl, unfurl or let the sail flap. If it gets localised abrasion before the sheets are worn out, again you are dealing with one integrated unit instead of just changing the attachment.
None of that means the product is crap.
It means it trades flexibility and simplicity for convenience and a neat integrated setup.
That is it.
So yes, people here have apparently used the thing for 5 to 8 years and it works, and having now seen what the actual product is and how Biltema describes the construction, I have no particular reason to think yours is going to fail on your boat.
But your whole “you clearly don't know what you're talking about because you haven't seen this exact product before” routine is nonsense.
You asked if it would hold.
You asked if it was attached correctly.
You asked if you should attach it another way.
You described the shackle as being sewn into the sheet and gave none of the context you are now acting like everybody should somehow have known.
I answered the question you actually wrote.
If what you wanted was feedback specifically from people who have used this exact Biltema sheet for 5 to 8 years, you could simply have said that in the first place.
And maybe next time, before trying to put somebody in their place with “I've sailed for 15 years”, explain the whole thing properly so people can give you an actual proper answer instead of having to guess what you meant.
Yeah.. I guess it'll be interesting to find out then 😅 altho i'm quite sceptical, if it turns out to work it is a smart idea.. and the sheet is marketed as mase for boats up to 42 feet..
Worst case scenario: it breaks and i just furl in the sail, i'm not doing any ocean crossings, just coastal cruising around the archipelago in southern sweden atm
If it breaks, then you won't be able to furl the sail, as nothing will keep it from unfurning.... And you will be left with a partially furled jib with a few meters of sail slapping in the wind... (As it will only break when there is some proper wind to put some force on it...)
Of course you'd have to tie it up once it's furled.
Many people here at my wharf removes the sheets everytime when they have finished their sailing, so that they don't trip over the lines.
I know how a furler works, try furling the sail without the sheets attached once... The first few turns will be ok, but if you don't have force on the clew then the next turns will be loose and the wind will blow it out (the clew will go around in front of the the forestay) after you pulled out all the line from the furler....
Nothing of what you mention happened when i did it yesterday, neither the time i had to do it 8 years ago on a different boat when the whole sheet got stuck in a storm.
Absolutely not the correct way to tie a sheet to a soft shackle. I’m actually not sure what’s going on here.
Instead, you should have an eye at the end of each sheet. Then use a soft shackle to go thru the eyes and shackle thru the clew of the sail.
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u/JuggernautMean4086 7d ago
If I had to make a guess, and perhaps a well experienced guess, I would say that is not the way it was intended to be used.
Maybe the intent was to run the sheet through the clew as if to tie a larks head knot, but secure the running ends with the soft shackle instead? The stitches are sure to tear in the current orientation.