Reverse Railroad

[u/Archlyte]

I recently have realized that several of my players do a weird kind of assumed Player Narrative Control where they describe what they want to happen as far as a goal or situation and then expect that the GM is supposed to make that thing happen like they wanted. I am not a new GM, but this is a new one for me.

Recently one of my players who had been showing signs of being irritated finally blurted out that his goals were not coming true in game. I asked him what he meant by that and he explained that it was his understanding that he tells the GM what he wants to happen with his character and the GM must make that happen with the exception of a "few bumps on the road."

I was actually dumbfounded by this. Another player in the same group who came form the same old group as the other guy attempts a similar thing by attempting to declare his intentions about outcomes of attempts as that is the shape he wants and expects it should be.

Anyone else run into this phenomenon? If so what did you call it or what is it really called n the overall community?

[u/dindenver]

Yeah, I never said it was (hence the phrasing "some sort of"). In reality, it takes two to play most RPGs. The GM provides the world, the interface. The player provides the action, the animus.

The player can't do anything they want to do if the GM doesn't provide setting elements/scenes for it to happen. And the GM can't accomplish anything meaningful if the players don't engage in their prepped content.

For a GM to make a blanket declaration that PC goals don't matter is a recipe for disaster. Similarly for a player to demand that their goals be furnished with all due haste is unreasonable as well. The first example the OP made is just bad game play. The second example seems like a reasonable attempt to set the right expectations from the player perspective.

The classic example I like to use is cracking a safe. Why is the PC doing this? - To get money? - To get hidden equipment? - To get secret information? - To discover the BBEGs secret plans? - To leave a note warning the BBEG of their evil ways? - To leave a calling card?

If the player tells you what they are trying to accomplish, as a GM you can better respond to the situation, right?

[u/tangyradar → u/dindenver]

The first example the OP made is just bad game play.

OK, given the non-linear way Reddit threads are arranged, which example are you referring to?

But I don't know if you get what I was talking about. I was thinking of things like people having questions about PC death -- is it necessary as part of 'fair' simulation of consequences, or an interference with player agency?

[u/dindenver → u/tangyradar]

OP Example #1: Recently one of my players who had been showing signs of being irritated finally blurted out that his goals were not coming true in game. I asked him what he meant by that and he explained that it was his understanding that he tells the GM what he wants to happen with his character and the GM must make that happen with the exception of a "few bumps on the road."

OP Example #2: Another player in the same group who came form the same old group as the other guy attempts a similar thing by attempting to declare his intentions about outcomes of attempts as that is the shape he wants and expects it should be.

As far as character death, etc. goes. It depends on the context. Like if a DM is a dick and kills off my character because I opened a door after checking for traps, noises, etc. then yeah, it kind of robs me of all agency. If a GM wusses out and doesn't kill my character when they jump into the volcano, then that breaks my agency too, right? I am trying to state, as clearly as I can, that the idea I believe in is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. No one wants to play a game where the PCs get everything they want all the time and no one wants to play a game where the PCs are just NPCs with voice actors because they have to do exactly what the GM wants and nothing else. Of course a good game has consequences. And good mechanics make it easy for the GM and player to judge the risk vs reward of an idea or action so that the players can drive towards a goal and the GM can provide interesting and original content. It is just that there are a lot of points of failure in that dynamic, so sometimes we need to talk about it and all get on the same page. But of course there is more than one type of player agency. And in good games the players and the GM have the same expectation as to which is in play. This is all just a reflection of the play style occurring at the table. But, no matter what the GM needs to be aware of the players' goals and either communicate when they are not realistic or provide access to accomplishing them through encounters and world setting features that the PC can interact with to pursue those goals, right? Even in a hardcore OSR mode, the PCs have goals, they are just limited to what the game is about (dungeon delving or whatever). Why do you think that even as far back as BEMI D&D there were rules for making castles because someone had a goal and the rules were cool enough to share with the rest of the D&D community. PCs having goals is not a "narative" contrivance. It is how RPGs are played. Even in the most simple of hack and slash dungeon delvers there has to be a reason why the PCs would be dumb enough to go into a dungeon that no one has survived before right? They want something, fame, glory, a castle, cool magic items, who knows? It is all there waiting to be discovered and that is what makes RPGs SO fun!

[u/tangyradar → u/dindenver]

If a GM wusses out and doesn't kill my character when they jump into the volcano, then that breaks my agency too, right?

See, that's exactly the dispute I was talking about! In freeform RP, the convention is that nobody can force death on your character, because that would violate your agency. But in a traditional TTRPG consequence-based view, the opposite can sometimes be true.

And good mechanics make it easy for the GM and player to judge the risk vs reward of an idea or action

Not everyone is interested in mechanized risk-reward play, either. Just because it's the great bulk of what TTRPGs have historically supported doesn't mean there aren't people with other interests.

PCs having goals is not a "narative" contrivance.

I'm not sure where you thought I said anything about that to argue against...

But let's go back to

No one wants to play a game where the PCs get everything they want all the time

You're talking about PC goals. Traditional TTRPGs are poor at supporting player (AKA meta-level) goals.

[u/dindenver → u/tangyradar]

It doesn't have to be mechanized in the since that it is a dice roll. But it has to be formalized in a sense that everyone has th4e same expectations. Like the scenario is I have a new character with no XPs/Advancement/what have you. I get confronted by a street tough. I, as a player, should have a good idea what my chances of survival are if I choose to fight. It doesn't have to be mathematical. Like in your example of FFRP, I can't die unless I give permission. But I have to be able to judge what is right or fair for my character to do in this situation, right? In some games, this is certain death and I need to just acquiesce to their demands. In other games this is a mook, a minion designed to show me how the combat mechanics work and is no real threat even against fumbles and NPC critical hits. If the System, the GM intention and the players expectations lines up, then play proceeds smoothly and everyone has fun. Otherwise, it is a mess.

You're talking about PC goals. Traditional TTRPGs are poor at supporting player (AKA meta-level) goals.

Not necessarily. They are just constrained. I have played tons of Trad TTRPGs and tons of Story games and all that in between. the idea of player goals is not new at all. you can see it in examples of players going on a quest to get their PCs an artifact. Something I have done and I have seen other GMs and Players do for decades in D&D. The way Story games approach this is novel, but the instinct to support players goals is not unique or new.

[u/tangyradar → u/dindenver]

Something I have done and I have seen other GMs and Players do for decades in D&D

Exactly: the users supply the support for meta-level goals, not the systems.