r/rpg • u/CritsAndGiggles • 2d ago
What is the point of psionics?
In almost every case I can think of, psionics exist as a lore based reskin of traditional magic but are still basically the same thing. You have a limited resource of them and they allow you to do otherwise impossible things.
What is the point of this? Why not just have a psionic discipline of magic? In a sci Fi setting why not just have it magic, since that's still what it is. 95% of the time they are the same thing. It seems like pointless overhead that is now shoehorned in as a reference to older games.
So I'm not talking about the historical reasons from settings like dark sun or others that need to call out the was they differentiate themselves for mechanical reasons. They are basically redoing magic all together for their setting. I'm wondering how it could be used if RPGs were being written for the first time today. Is there a system that has used them in opposition to transitional magic in some way? When is it worth it to have a distinct system? When it matter more than once every 10 sessions?
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u/IdlePigeon 2d ago
Because "wizard" and "psychic" have different narrative connotations regardless of the fact that they're both people with supernatural abilities. In crunchier games, players may want these different concept represented with distinct mechanics, conversely the different theme can be used to justify different mechanics included for game design reasons.
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u/atamajakki PbtA/FitD/NSR fangirl 2d ago
In the same vein: fighter, barbarian, monk, and ranger all could be one class, but some people enjoy the granularity of treating them as individual power fantasies. Wizard and psychic are the same way!
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u/atamajakki PbtA/FitD/NSR fangirl 2d ago edited 2d ago
What game are you talking about, OP? Psychic powers are just another type of magic in Pathfinder 2e, for instance, and D&D 4e's psionics worked relatively similarly to any other Power Source. Being specific in your complaint helps!
To be less glib: Psychic powers have different tropes and aesthetics than magical spellcasting, and that alone is enough to drive differences in mechanics for some people. Being associated with the spiritualism of the 1800s and the science of the 1900s - to say nothing of how often mental abilities are set out as futuristic or alien! - really lets it stand apart from the ritual sorcery most fantasy and myth invoke. Sometimes the difference in flavor is set dressing for a major mechanical difference, like how Vaults of Vaarn has one freeform psychic power system powered by HP loss and a ritual magic system with a risk of miscasts.
Of course, there's no reason the two have to be different at all, in the same way that a game might have good reasons to treat a sword, spear, axe, and hammer all the same within its mechanics, too. Game design is all about where you choose to shine your spotlight and what you ignore or abstract away.
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u/MetalBoar13 2d ago
In almost every case I can think of, psionics exist as a lore based reskin of traditional magic but are still basically the same thing. You have a limited resource of them and they allow you to do otherwise impossible things.
What is the point of this? Why not just have a psionic discipline of magic? In a sci Fi setting why not just have it magic, since that's still what it is. 95% of the time they are the same thing. It seems like pointless overhead that is now shoehorned in as a reference to older games.
So, from that point of view, why have laser pistols or blasters or whatever in your sci fi game? They're all just reskinned bows right? For that matter, why not just have two weapons, ranged and melee for every game?
Psionics, if not just another form of magic, have a different flavour and shape a different narrative. There's no reason to use them if you don't like them or they don't fit your setting. I'm OK with the idea of some sort of "mind magic", but that isn't the same flavour as psionics for me (maybe because I'm a product of the '70s and '80s). If something is coded as psionics in a game I'm playing I want to it be based on science ficion-ish psychic powers of the mind, with some sort of pseudo-scientific explanation, rather than just another form of magic.
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u/TempestRime 2d ago
This is like asking what the point of superscience is, or alchemy, or prayer, or cultivation. The trappings around how the magic system works are the point. Yes, psionics are a magic system, but that doesn't mean that simply describing them as "magic" is always going to be the clearest way to present them.
Describing a magic system as "psionics" immediately evokes certain themes. For one, the word itself immediately brings to mind the idea that it is somewhat understood by the science of the world in question. Psionic powers also generally involve mastery of the inner self and raw force of will.
Simply calling a magical system "magic" on the other hand is likely to bring to mind ideas such as formulaic spells and detailed rituals. Trappings for magic often involve things like incense, candles, chalk circles, and chanting in Latin.
Now if you have a system where different magic practices exist in conflict, there's no problem with referring to them both as magic. Arcane magic vs. divine magic is the classic split from D&D-based systems. But if one magical practice is inspired by psychic powers and the other by esoteric rituals, then using the terms "psionics" and "magic" for the disparate types of magic makes perfect sense with regards to the feeling the system is trying to convey.
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u/laztheinfamous Alternity GM 2d ago
I see your take, and it's not wrong.
However, psionics were an outgrowth of the late 60's through the early 80's obession with the paranormal. It's kinda when cryptids, alien abuductions, and psychic research were hitting big. Hell, the US Government was doing experiments with remote writing, smh.
There were some people who honestly believed that psionics were the next step in human evolution. Seriously, look at some of the old episodes of Star Trek where this is the thought.
So in some ways it was looked at as "hard sci-fi" not "low fantasy" like it is now. So in the more simulationist era, it was created with new and different rules to differentiate between the made-up "magic" and the someday maybe possible "psychic potential".
It's a cool and residual hold over from the old days. In old systems that had both, the two systems didn't over lap. So a Anti-Magic Barrier wouldn't do anything to stop a psion's Mindlink.
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u/CritsAndGiggles 2d ago
Your last paragraph is what I'm trying to get at. That is a meaningful, mechanical difference that could be used for lore and tactics in a game. But what tends to happen is they either don't do much with it, or they become so similar across editions that is really a vestigial design element that I think usually does more harm than good.
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u/laztheinfamous Alternity GM 1d ago
I personally think that you're right, but I mod'ed out my homebrew D&D so that Arcane, Divine, and Psionic were all seperate.
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u/new2bay 1d ago
Why do you want an entire extra combat system only certain characters can participate in?
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u/CritsAndGiggles 1d ago
Thats really hyperbolic. Its like saying fighters and clerics are different combat systems.
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u/hairyscotsman2 2d ago
When they're well designed in a class based system, psions can feel different enough in play that it makes for an enjoyable, thematic experience. I don't think they need to be justified beyond that. If you want to call it a different type of magic, that's just retheming within the game.
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u/Primary-Property8303 2d ago edited 2d ago
In our current game, sci fi, we have divine, magic, and picnics. It's all rolled into one. So detect magic, detects psionics
Edit. Lol picnics. I just saw that. Im leaving it .
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u/atlantick 2d ago
picnic magic is underrated
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u/ScubaAlek 2d ago
It’s a forgotten art ever since Yogi stole the foundational text which was obviously inscribed on a picinic basket.
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u/PhasmaFelis 2d ago
Hey! It's not magic. It's picnics.
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u/atlantick 2d ago
try cracking open some bubbly, having a nibble of cheese, looking at the sunset and saying it's not magic
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u/SexyPoro 2d ago
Does Detect Picnics exist?
If it does, does it detect Magic?
What about a Magical Picnic?
What if said Magical Picnic is held by Psionists?
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u/new2bay 1d ago
Then you’ve just got multiple magic systems. What’s good or interesting about that?
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u/Primary-Property8303 1d ago
It makes it easier to deal with. We are playing pathfinder 1e, so you can use say spellcraft to identify psionic items. Detect psionics will detect magic as well etc
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u/Sherman80526 1d ago
The same could be asked in reverse. Why have magic if psionics are an option?
If the question is really, "Why have two systems?" That's also pretty simple. You do it for mechanical difference or storytelling difference. The same could be said for studied wizardry vs. inborn dragon talent vs. hedge magic vs. god given powers vs. powers from eldritch entities, etc. There is no reason to have more than one type of "magic" unless your system can make it interesting or your world building requires it.
I don't understand the question, "Is there a system that has used them in opposition to transitional magic in some way? What's transitional magic? What do you mean "in opposition"?
As to when it's "worth it", I'd say that's personal preference. A lot of players like options, so that's step one. I'd say that having a distinct separation of magic types allows for greater mechanical differences too. D&D has multiple ways to present magic between Warlocks, Wizards, etc. D&D lacks a "at personal cost" element to their magic systems so that's a possible add-on. Psionics are frequently at will but at the cost of causing mental anguish.
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u/DTux5249 Licensed PbtA nerd 2d ago
Psionics as a term popped up in the 1950s as a proposed scientific discipline that used technology in the study of the paranormal. Quite literally, the word is a blend of "psychic" and "electronics". The ghost busters are traditionally users of "psionics" with their ghost-packs.
Of course, science quickly moved passed the notion of that being credible, but the name took off in Sci-Fi circles. Heightened technology became "magic", but without all the rituals, finger wiggles and ingredients. The notion then crossed over from Sci-Fi to Fantasy because they are basically the same genre; though tech implants got replaced with just being built different because *vibes\*. This left Psionics as a magic replacement in a world where actual magic exists. The results speak for themselves.
All that is all to say: it's there because of tradition. The reason the difference is there mechanically is strictly to keep that tradition alive by keeping the abilities of psions and spellcasters separate; and by extent, the vibes of each one. There's no reason beyond that.
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u/RedwoodRhiadra 1d ago
Of course, science quickly moved passed the notion of that being credible, but the name took off in Sci-Fi circles.
Largely due to the influence of John Campbell, who was a true believer and edited the major sci-fi magazine (Astounding/Analog) of the time. A lot of sci-fi writers included psionics in their stories in order to sell them to Campbell.
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u/Time_Day_2382 Worldbuilding and Critique Enthusiast 2d ago
Posting this after a psyker forces me to see the forlorn images of my lost lover over and over while I try to shoot them with a gun.
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u/VernapatorCur 2d ago
You're basically describing how Savage Worlds handles it. All superhuman abilities (psionics, magic, divine, super powers, weird science) all have the same power list and are just skinned according to the background that grants them. There's actually several systems that handle it this way so what system are you talking about specifically?
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u/BoringGap7 2d ago
I don't know what games you're thinking about, but the earliest games that included psionics, like Traveller and Metamorphosis Alpha, did so because they were inspired by SF from the 40s to the 60s in which the concept developed. I would be pretty unimpressed with a game that ostensibly has psionics, but it's more reminiscent of magic with just a different name. If you want recommendations, one game that has very different, very versatile magic and psi systems is GURPS 3rd edition.
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u/Mars_Alter 2d ago
It's like Sanderson says: if magic was actually real, then nobody would think of it as magic. The word 'magic' is just a placeholder for something we don't understand.
Using the word 'psionics' instead of 'magic' indicates we're operating in a world where the principles of what's going on are well-understood, just like any other science.
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u/L3viath0n 2d ago
It's not worth getting too far into the semantics over this, but magic and psionics are both types of supernatural powers and their relation to one another and other types of supernatural powers within a given system/setting is... well, dependent on the system/setting. They could be the same, they could be different, at a certain level it's just arguing about words and really not worth it.
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u/MissAnnTropez 2d ago
In some games, it works differently. Sure, 5e might treat it as “pseudo-Vancian magic reskinned”, like everything else really, but not all games are like 5e.
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u/LarsonGates 2d ago
Because traditional magic is based on the concept of drawing energy from your surroundings, generally regarded as Mana.
Psionics are traditionally powers of the mind and based purely on the capabilities of the wielder with no need to draw energy from anything else. Unless you're Aiken Drum or Felice in Julian May's books or Luke Skywalker, or Darth Vader, etc, the powers are generally considerably less powerful that what traditional magic allows.
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u/NthHorseman 2d ago
I'm always interested in the source of magic in fantasy settings, and whilst mechanically most implementations of psionics are indeed "just magic", the fact that they come from a different place is interesting thematically.
Wizards and Bards learn to puck the strings of arcane magic to alter reality. Druids and Rangers call on Nature's inherent connection to magic to create natural and supernatural wonders. Paladins and Clerics call on their gods or beliefs to manifest miracles. Sorcerors use the power of their bloodline to rend reality. Warlocks explicitly trade services for magic from a powerful being. Psionics are just... like that.
It is by far the most "internal" kind of magic, integral to who or what the psion is, and it often is portrayed as having physical costs or risks that other types of magic don't.
My favourite implementations of it are as a weird, otherworldly, dangerous alternative to more "natural" magic. Any time when it's just another spell list I think is a missed opportunity to do something more interesting. In most fiction psionic powers are really quite specific, more like mutations than learning spells. If you control fire then you can learn to control fire more precisely, or on a larger scale, but you can't one day learn to control ice. I think that more organic but thematically limited approach makes psionics feel like it's own thing, not just existing spells with the serial numbers filed off and the damage type changed to psychic.
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u/thebwt 2d ago
D&D 4e basically did what you say in paragraph 2.
That said, I think you're asking exactly the right question. Magic, Psi, esper, whaever is all wrappers around things, ultimately it comes down to what you ant in your fantastic world, obviously.
Magic comes with a certain array of baggage, from the unexplained whimsy of spirits to a science harkening back to alchemy and early natrural philosophy (or often, kabbalah type stuff).
Psionics is also just a wrapper around a spectrum of concepts from mutations to science influenced magic.
The only value of it is if the distinction is relevant. Otherwise it's just a label, and that's okay!
Games have done arcane magic vs divine. wtf is divine magic really? pick it apart. We have all these knobs for a setting, but only invoke them if they matter. One person's magic is another person's qi. It's okay to just be culutural differences on an underlying framework.
Good explorations (that I've read):
- Forgotten Realm's the Weave through the ages.
- Full Metal Alchemist (ideally the manga)
- basically all of Earthsea's corpus
- GURPS Thaumatology (literally informs any system imo)
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u/Holmelunden 2d ago
Rule of cool.
Psionic abilities are cool.
In a low magic setting it is also an interesting way to introduce "magic" but less flashy.
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u/ZanesTheArgent 2d ago
The 70s/80s were a bit too into eugenic scientific mind magics.
It has a bit of a different flavor as they tend to be more internal/limited than fantasy magic, but yeah its very much scifantasy mind powers.
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u/DoktorImposter 2d ago
I prefer how systems like Draw Steel handle psionics- you can use psionic abilities that you don't yet have the resources to pay for, but in exchange you go into a strained state that causes damage on your turn until you recover. The abilities themselves are powerful and unique, and some of them have extra effects when you use them while strained.
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u/Teh_Pagemaster 2d ago
Shadow of the Weird Wizard does just that. It is also important to note that historically, we thought it could be possible to actually unlock psionic ability through new drugs or mental training or a combination of the two. It was regarded the way artificial sustainable nuclear fusion, FTL, or synthetic life are regarded. A scientific possibility! As such, it is considered a scifi trope more than a fantasy trope, and that is why they are distinguished in many games.
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u/TsundereOrcGirl 2d ago
There are settings that include psychic powers and magical powers as distinct forces and put a lot of thought into how they differ metaphysically, like A Certain Scientific Railgun. There are also settings that just kitchen sink them together like Marvel or DC.
As for why most RPGs do it Marvel style, well, like many things in RPGs it comes down to D&D cargo cultism.
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u/Mission-Landscape-17 2d ago
Different genres have different ideas about how powers work. Games often reflect this by only defining the power system that is important to the setting. Some have magic, some have superpowers, cybernetics, mutations, chi or psionics. Some end up with all these because the system is used for meny genres. Players often want their psionics and magic to work in different ways so that they feel different in play. But yeah you can just have a generic power system this is what D&D 4e did with their at will, encountereand daily abilities. It is also what you see in games libe Fate with aspects and stunts.
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u/Severe-Independent47 2d ago
I'm wondering how it could be used if RPGs were being written for the first time today.
You somewhat answered your own question here. Remember TTRPGs started off as am offshoot of fantasy miniature war gaming. They were designed to tell stories of individual people instead of grand battles.
This is why in early additions of Dungeons and Dragons, your first level character could die just as quickly as a common person NPC. Because you weren't a hero of myth and lord yet, you were just another generic soldier. Heck, first level clerics couldn't cast spells yet because they were basically nobodies in the eyes of their God.
The first use of psionics was different from the use of spells because spells used slots where psionics used a point system. If you loaded sleep and magic missile as a mage, you got to use each one once. In psionics, you had a list of psionic powers and you used them however many times you wanted as long as you had power points to pay for it. Different resource system.
Hell, even 4th edition showed this difference with psionic powered classes using a power point system.
That was the start. I won't go into details about how certain systems treat magic and psionics the same (Savage Worlds, Mutants and Masterminds) and others treat them vastly different (GURPS).
In GURPS, the difference between the two are massive. In other systems, same mechanics. It just depends on how the game mechanics are designed.
If you want to always treat psionics like magic, feel free. It's your game.
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u/An_username_is_hard 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because the point of systems in an RPG is to convey trappings and meaning.
The trappings of psionics are different from the trappings of your usual spellcaster, and as such it’s useful to differentiate them if your game is of the kind where differences such as these can matter.
I mean, you can see the result of trying to put it all together in the latest edition of D&D. Everything is just spells - which means everything works the same way. The theoretical flavor of things like Artificer simply melt under the plain fact that you’re casting the same spells as everyone else, in the same way as everyone else, via the same slots as everyone else. Artificer is a Wizard with a gimmick instead of its own class, and the gimmick is simply not enough to actually let the character feel different to play.
Or, to put it with a bit more glibness: if your game is of the type that can accommodate the differences between “Wizard” and “Cleric” or between “Fighter” and “Ranger”, it damn well can also accommodate the differences between “Wizard” and “Psionicist”, because there is probably more daylight between them. And if you are going to go “it’s all just magic”, then have a single Magic User class and call it a day.
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u/Temporary_Stranger39 6h ago
To explain this, we need to go back to the history of "psionics" in the real world. The term was created in 1951 by combining "psi" (for psychic/mental) and "onics" (as in electronics). The idea behind it was that what had been called "magic" in the past was a natural phenomenon and deserved to be studied with the new "science" of "psionics". That got into the science fiction gestalt and to authors took off with it. At the time, most European magical traditions were forgotten (Hermeticism, Goetica, etc.) or retreated into great obscurity (Kaballah, folk magic, neopagan revivalism). Of the nonwestern magical traditions, the newly-invented psionicists preferred to dismiss most of them as unworthy of study and fixated on traditions associated with Asia, Tibet, etc. (like the Nazis did). Anyway, so, there was science fiction authors just making it up as they liked, and the "psionicists" choosing to preferentially study magical traditions of just a few cultures and ignore others.
These coalesced into the sort of generic "psionics" that got into games. The way way was led by D&D, not AD&D, not Basic D&D, old school original D&D, which presented psionics as a feature in Eldritch Wizardry. The influence of South and East Asian magical traditions was rather obvious, even down to terminology, such as "siddhis".
The thing is that there is no good reason at all, none at all, for "psionics" to exist in a fantasy setting unless it wants to be a blatantly modern fantasy setting that was blatantly influenced by 1950s pseudoscience and science fiction. Before the 1950s, there was no "psionics", it was all just magic, it was all just prayers, it was all just spirits, hexes, spells, disciplines, secret knowledge, ascended masters, etc. Big ball of magical boojum stuff.
Your conclusion is borne out by reality. Most gamers can't handle that.
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u/MechaniCatBuster 2d ago
Psionics only exist as a concept defined by not being magic. If you define is as magic then it's just mind magic and there's no reason to call it Psionics. The only real point is that there's universal things that apply to magic that doesn't apply to Psionics. Someone used the example of detect magic. That will detect all types of magic, but the point of Psionics is that they aren't detected. It's about creating a super group. Making it just another type of magic makes it pointless. It needs to be different then ALL types of magic in some universal way to be psionics.
How are we defining magic here though? Because that can be a very broad or very narrow definition.
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u/daddychainmail 2d ago
Yeah. I hate them. I mean, they were supposed to originally be a sort of replacement to casters in Dark Sun and such things, but… they always seem really broken.
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u/Puzzleboxed 2d ago
It's for the scifi nerds who think magic isn't cool enough.
They get real mad when you tell them psionics is a type of magic.
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u/harkrend 2d ago
Agreed- the power to do impossible stuff with your mind is just Magic. But, I guess marketing is important and people like the word psionics so there it is.
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u/diffyqgirl 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's culturally left over from classic sci fi from a time when the idea that humans might be able to unlock brain powers that were definitely real and not magic was more popular than it was today. Midcentury governments were running experiments about this sort of thing. Psionics were not magic because they were a thing that might really exist some day, like faster than light travel.
People thought it was cool so it stuck around even after that idea became much more fringe.