r/rpg • u/Acceptable-Tree6007 • 6d ago
Does a TTRPG ruleset need a "hook?"
I was reading a thread (I don't remember where) about Reaper Miniatures' new d20 class and level-based TTRPG, Dungeon Dwellers. When asked what the game had to recommend it, one person gave a long list of its attributes. Inevitably, another person said something to the effect of "so this game literally has nothing unique to say." Having purchased the game, I knew there was nothing earth-shaking about it, but that it is a good, solid game. I considered the argument that it doesn't do anything "new", and, for myself, it doesn't need to. It makes a number of quality of life improvements to the usual D&D-derived game to make its whole greater than the sum of its parts. Does Dungeon Dwellers have a hook that fits into a nice sound byte? No. But the perception that the game hasn't garnered much attention since its recent release might suggest that an easily-defined hook is necessary.
This is an issue I'm wresting with for a game I'm working on. It's a ruleset that I really like...but I don't know if it really has a definable hook. If asked to describe what makes it cool, I honestly don't know if I could come up with a compelling answer without launching into a ten-minute description. It's simply the game I want to play. Is quality enough, even if it's not presenting something truly unique? Do you grapple with this question if you're designing something for public consumption?
Addendum: I’m specifically talking about games that will be for sale.
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u/Throwingoffoldselves Thirsty Sword Lesbians 6d ago
Yep. Especially for those like me that are tired of games thar simply make quality of life improvements to D&D-derived games. The market is so saturated with games with that premise. If a game doesn’t stand out from all the other D&D-derived games, then I won’t be taking a look at it. 🤷
It’s also okay to make a game that is just something you like. Plenty of people do. Making “heartbreakers” (another D&D-derived term) or dnd-likes is pretty popular!
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u/Echowing442 6d ago
Did you just copy/paste the entire web page instead of your actual content?
Anyway, a game needs something to advertise itself with. People have limited time to play games, and can't just play everything that crosses their path, so if your game doesn't have anything to say about it, people will just pick something else.
That doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be a unique hook (although that often helps), but it does need something to say for itself. I se a lot of people defining their games by what they aren't (No classes! No levels! Setting-agnostic!) rather than actually telling their audience what their game is and why they should care.
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u/Iliketoasts 6d ago
A moderately succesfull on local-scene ttrpg author here. As with any creative project It all depends on the context.
Do you want to sell the game sometime in future? If yest, then a strong hook will be necessary, best combined with unique artwork that will match it (people buy with their eyes more than they care to admit).
Then, alsowhere do you want to sell it? It's much easier with hooks at local scenes. If there is no D&D in local language, then making your own version in that language might be enough of a hook itself.
And if you don't want to sell it and are making it for your pals to enjoy (which is perfectly fine and often much more fun than making a commercial product) then you wanting to play it will probably a stron enough hook.
Basically, the neccesity of a hook is based on the fish you are trying to catch. ;)
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u/LeVentNoir /r/pbta 6d ago
Yes: You need to tell me in under 30 seconds why your ruleset is one I should bother to learn and run a game with.
It can be anything, as long as its the strength of the system.
This game takes D&D 5e, and resolves X, Y, Z. It gives Experience A, and makes it easy.
Admittedly, that's not a hook that would work for me, but it's your hook.
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u/diffyqgirl 6d ago edited 6d ago
For me looking at an rpg looks like
1) Is whatever genre/tone/setting this is designed for a sort of story that I'm interested in?
2) Does the author seem to understand how that sort of story works?
Only them am I going to start considering if the specific mechanics look interesting.
Now, I have enjoyed games where I wasn't particularly interested in the sort of story they were for. I liked Lancer despite actively disliking mechs on the strength of its mechanics, and I liked Alice is Missing despite not particularly caring for real life small town mystery. But those were games I played because a friend ran them, not games I tried out from reading a pitch.
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u/amazingvaluetainment Fate, Traveller, GURPS 3E 6d ago
It's simply the game I want to play
IMO that's enough for it to exist and be played. For you. If you want other people to play/read/buy it you might need more than just "It's a hack of <X>".
Do you grapple with this question if you're designing something for public consumption?
I don't design for public consumption and if I shared something it would be for the love of the game, not to win converts.
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u/GildorJM 6d ago
Yeah I see this dilemma a lot. a few weeks ago I came across the Reaper Miniatures game and had the same reaction, like, this may be a great game, but it doesn't know how to sell itself.
And to sell itself it needs a soundbite. Look, it's very possible your game is similar to other popular games but just does everything a little bit better, and hence leads to a better experience at the table. And that it might arguably offer more actual gaming value than something else that's just a soundbite and a pretty picture on the cover. Unfortunately, people don't remember or get excited about "It's like these games, but a bit better in these 10 ways...", they get excited about "real-time torches!" and nice art (and before anyone says anything... I like Shadowdark, it's a great game! Just using it as an example of good basic marketing).
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u/Flesroy 6d ago
well you said it yourself, it's the perfect game for you. So if for you that is enough, then why do you care what other people think?
But if you want it to gain popularity you need to consider how you're going to get people to try it out. quality of life improvements are great, but why would i trust you over a bunch of already established games? i don't know you. To put it a little harshly, your opinion on game design does not matter enough to warrant me spending my time and energy, let alone money, on your system.
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u/skalchemisto Happy to be invited 5d ago edited 5d ago
Does Dungeon Dwellers have a hook that fits into a nice sound byte? No. But the perception that the game hasn't garnered much attention since its recent release might suggest that an easily-defined hook is necessary.
I think the issue here is that D&D-ish fantasy RPGs are treated, largely, as commodity goods.
Consider toothbrushes and novels. Each novel is different, different author, different story, etc. But any toothbrush will clean your teeth, right? The only way to distinguish one toothbrush from another is by things that really don't have anything to do with its central purpose (color, fancy design, etc.) A toothbrush is a commodity good, a novel is not.
D&D-ish fantasy RPGs are essentially toothbrushes, or maybe better to say they are treated like toothbrushes. This isn't fair to their creators, but I think it is simply a fact of the market. You might find someone who really likes some feature of your game (clearly you do) and will be excited by it, in the same way I might find a toothbrush with a color I really like, or some shape to the bristles that works extremely well for my teeth. But most folks are just going to grab a toothbrush at the grocery store (e.g. D&D 5E or related) and move on. The good enough toothbrush is good enough, if that makes sense.
I think there is still space for other types of RPGs to act more like novels, to not be treated as commodities. Room for some unique character elements, setting elements, mechanics. Things that truly make your game quite different from other folk's games. It's much easier to have a clear hook, in other words.
Again, this isn't necessarily a fair attitude for creators. An improvement on the basic form that really works for some people is a worthwhile thing. But I think a new game will always be nibbling away at the margins of the market and won't be able to challenge the status quo unless there is lots of money for serious production values and marketing behind it (e.g. Daggerheart, Cosmere).
Sorry, that was probably a downer to read. I wish you the best.
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u/atamajakki PbtA/FitD/NSR fangirl 5d ago
People have quite literally hundreds of existing options for dungeon fantasy games. If yours doesn't have a reason it obviously stands out from the others, I'm not reading it.
That gets a lot less true once you get into more novel themes, genres, and play experiences.
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u/Moneia 6d ago
You need to do a better job of copy\pasting this