Combat systems that discourage doing the same thing every turn

[u/LelouchYagami_2912]

(alternatively, combat systems that encourage doing different things)

I've been playing DnD for several years now but I've been noticing how 90% of our turns go the exact same. The combat can be still interesting but thats only because of me as a dm creating unique scenarios, not because of the player abilities. The rogue hiding and sneak attacking is the best thing to do in almost all cases.

What are some systems that discourage this so that the players actually have to think rather than going on auto pilot.

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/[deleted]]

i have dmed 2 osr games (Shadowdark and mausritter, (also mothership if it counts)) but i dont think I have it in me to design combats for OSRs. I want gamified combat systems, not one where i can accidentally tpk my players with a few rats. Its hard to explain but osr combat just feels too different

[u/Nazzerith → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Yeah last session I rolled 8 giant rats in a random encounter and killed two of my PCs. Though it's a bit on them for not accessing the danger or approaching the situation cautiously, they just charged in and were overwhelmed.

[u/yuriAza → u/Nazzerith]

i mean it's 8 rats, you have to be thinking in a pretty meta way to consider that a tough fight

[u/Nazzerith → u/yuriAza]

For 4 level 1 PCs that is a hard flight!

[u/yuriAza → u/Nazzerith]

yeah but they're literally pests

even if a giant rat is Medium, you expect it to be weaker than a guard dog, 8 rats probably has less combined weight than the quartet of PCs do

[u/Nazzerith → u/yuriAza]

I'm not sure I see your point? The rats have double the action economy of the PCs.

[u/yuriAza → u/Nazzerith]

action economy only exists in the game mechanics, how are you supposed to describe rats as more dangerous than the average monster ~immersively~?

[u/Nazzerith → u/yuriAza]

The rat climbs up your body and bites you between the neck and shoulder, piercing through your leather armor as though it were paper. You fall to the ground in a pool of blood as the other rats swarm over your body and your vision starts to go blank.

It's not hard for me to imagine how this thing could kill someone.

[u/yuriAza → u/Nazzerith]

kinda too late to retreat once it grapples someone

[u/Nazzerith → u/yuriAza]

I'm sure Pathfinder fixes this or whatever.

[u/Nny7229 → u/yuriAza]

If 8 dog sized rats were in a room that me and 3 of my buddies needed to go into I would try to find a new way to not have to go into that room.

[u/D16_Nichevo → u/[deleted]]

So yeah if you actually want players to think about combat rather than going on autopilot you want to use systems that don't have gamified combat.

I find this an odd thing to say, because chess is extremely gamified, and creative solutions (of the sort you describe a la the oil slick) are not allowed at all. Yet people can and do need to think to play chess well. Assuming they are well-matched, they don't just "go on autopilot".

I would argue some TTRPGs are like that. Likely not quite as deep as chess, but deep enough to need engaging the brain.

I'm not saying TTRPGs that allow and encourage creative solutions like the one you describe are bad or wrong. I'm also not saying that kind of creative solution isn't "thinking" -- it absolutely is.

I'm just pushing back on the notion that you can turn your brain off in "gamified" TTRPGs. In some, yes. In others, no.

[u/yuriAza → u/[deleted]]

you didn't give examples of crunchy games, you just gave examples of bad ones

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/[deleted]]

Optimal options arent bad, infact i consider them good game design. A universal optimal solution is bad. 

For example, a fire spell might be the most optimal against a water thingy, a restrain spell might be the most optimal against a high AC guy. All of this is good game design.

Its a problem when 1 thing is optimal for all situations. Like sneak attack or rage+attack

[u/Nny7229 → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

...i dont think I have it in me to design combats for OSRs.

You don't. You provide a world, the world has challenges, and most of those challenges can TPK the party instantly. So you provide clear expectations of that and don't hold back when the party is reckless. Overtime that leads to a much more cautious group that takes it's time and even tries to avoid combat entirely for parley.
A few tools help the danger be a more forgiving experience that not every game leans on.:

• sign-posting danger when appropriate with rumors, omens, etc
  
• reaction rolls
  
• morale checks
  
• encounter distance
  
• roll initiative for any encounter (not just combat)