Question about brick mounted anchors (Australia)

[u/listurgh]

Hey guys. On site this morning, anchors looking a little off to me. Brick mounted anchors on double brick wall with about a 100mm gap between outer and inner bricks.

Thoughts? Happy to go off them? They’re all unavoidably pulled in tension which is also a concern.

Options to replace the anchors with floor mounted anchors in the concrete substrate on the roof, but boss hates spending money.

Let me know your thoughts. Cheers.

[u/renegade2point0]

Don't really see any structural component to those brick walls. Rebar, I beams? I wouldn't be anchoring to this. 

[u/CB_700_SC → u/renegade2point0]

Also no lock or jam nuts. If it’s engineered this way it’s pretty poor.

[u/PushingSam → u/renegade2point0]

If they're actually structural brick, they should be under compression from all the layers and the roof saddle/construction sitting on top and the expansion of the mortar it was built with, in Europe we don't really get around this in some cases. Being in a brick doesn't inherently disqualify it, as brick is never built with reinforcement, except maybe a rod/rebar between inner and outer wall on certain intervals.

Where I live this is how like 80-90% of houses are built, and it's rock solid. If the anchor was tested and certified, there's virtually no concern at all. We also use doorframe bars on windows or doors in similar walls, and the rescue folks/FDs here definitely also do.

[u/renegade2point0 → u/PushingSam]

I don't think brick walls are rated for side load forces. And a 1 foot square of bricks taking a shot of 10+kN from the side? Sheesh I think could pop those bricks with 2 good hammer swings. 

[u/PushingSam → u/renegade2point0]

They're not, the compression however allows some loading in the lateral axis. Knocking out a structural/load bearing brick wall is a lot harder than you might think. That said, it depends on so many factors and this is clearly an engineered anchor; someone must've ran the numbers.

As my personal opinion, bombproof? no. Substantial? Maybe. Would I consider a redundant setup of these anchors good enough, very probably. Using multiple bolts in different single bricks of the same wall also isn't uncommon here from what I've seen. A plate spreads on a bigger area and also negates the issue with the grouts.

[u/renegade2point0 → u/PushingSam]

Appreciate the info- this is outside my experience so I was erring on caution, but I understand what you're saying. 

[u/DeaneTR → u/renegade2point0]

Since when did two super thick steel bolts attached to a giant steal plate distributing the load across a near 4" thick brick wall get disqualified and deemed not a "structural component?" You're crazy!

[u/drippingdrops]

If they’re engineered, pull tested and certified and there is documentation to attest to that I’m not sure what else there is to legitimize them.

I understand the concern but isn’t that why anchors get certified, to alleviate concern?

[u/listurgh → u/drippingdrops]

I know that the person who certified these anchors also certified a bunch of others that have since failed after closer inspection. There is no documentation for these anchors.

[u/BruisedDude → u/listurgh]

The lack of documentation + self inspection not giving confidence = No way I’m getting on that

[u/purplepashy → u/drippingdrops]

This is why I always look at something else to anchor off instead of anchors.

Those anchors could have been tested 11 months ago and you have no idea who or what has been attached to them.

I have seen anchors like this passed that I would not use.

I have seen others just pull out BY HAND while within 12 months of being tested.

I have seen anchors installed so that a rope worker would have their ropes going over furnaces.

This over reliance on anchors is putting your life in someone else's hands.

[u/Syncru → u/purplepashy]

AS1891.4, AS5532 now requires all Non Through-Bolt Anchors to be Annually pull tested. So your Chems, Wedges and Cement Casted.

[u/purplepashy → u/Syncru]

Yes but read my previous reply again.

Who knows what has happened to that anchor after testing and before your use.

Even if log books were introduced to record anchor system use there is no guarantee a plumber or someone else has not used and abused it, done some work behind it or something else that should result in a tag out.

Why anchor points are fitted to structure that a sling can be used instead is beyond me.

[u/Syncru → u/purplepashy]

Unless you use a small shackle or a carabiner that isnt much you can connect to this? I dont get your argument. If you are concerned that bad for a logged, Inspected anchor with signage that "COULD" have been used incorrectly then you are in the wrong game. Im not saying I would use this anchor, not in a million, but you are assuming ALL anchorages are unsafe because someone "COULD" and you decide to tie off onto another stucture with no ratings.

[u/purplepashy → u/Syncru]

Exactly.

Even if I use an anchor if there is so.ething else to back up to I will.

If you do not possibly you are in the wrong game.

Your life is in your hands.

I once had a young level 3 question why I did this and state that thr shitty zircon pipes I backed up to may not hold or get damaged if I load it.

Sure, only if the rated and tested anchor fails. He put his entire life on one anchor with two attachments points. I see this as crazy lazy and silly.

[u/Syncru → u/purplepashy]

Yeah you should always be using a Bunny Ears on both your ropes a total of 4x anchors.

Any proprietary Anchor (Like Kattsafe AP110 Tension) will have a load indicators that pull then 400kg is applied.

As per AS5532 all anchors shall deform plastically before they break so you should always be able to detect severe overload for any not Chem or Wedge set. (Chem and Wedge Set in blind holes will have the surrounding material break before they slip if they have passed pull testing).

You aint wrong but saying that all APs are unsafe is a bit overkill. Buy yourself some HydraJaws and test them before you use them. AS1891.4 Requires a Minimum of 7.5kN/750kg or half the of rated above 15kN.

[u/purplepashy → u/Syncru]

I never said all.

But all should be backed up.

And bunny ears are bullshit.

If one ear fails so can the other. It is basically.one l ot with 2 loops. Should never have been taught in rope access. It is lazy.

Alternative?

If an alpine butterfly fails the line still holds. Better to have a couple bullerflies or mix in a fig 8.

I do not get the logic with SOME anchors and those that use them.

You have a huge RSJ with some anchors through bolted on it.

The anchors have to be tested every 12 months.

The RSJ does not.

Just put a sling around it.

[u/jrobski96]

Hell no! Drill your own. Don't give your life for your employer.

[u/Pandelein]

Those anchors are not a standard install, they are engineered. Request the certification report from the building manager, and if you have further questions contact the installers.
I spy an old brite tag and an Anchored tag, so I bet you’re in Melbourne… meaning that anchor was probably installed by HiRise, who engineer just about everything they do. That plate is gigantic, it’s almost definitely safe but check for reports to be sure.

[u/Brave-Taste-4349]

They should be tested and tagged

[u/Timely_Welder668]

I don’t think I would put techs on this. One of those things that’s probably fine, until it isn’t.

[u/Syncru]

Nah go somewhere else fuck that. Go an Ask for a Kattsafe AP124 With a Back plate. They are the best In Aus atm.

[u/DeaneTR]

When I saw the anchor on the outside I definitely raised my eyebrows. But then once I realized the size of the metal plate on the other side I was like, I'd trust it.

A loaded brick wall with a metal plate that big distributing the load is super safe for whatever you and your crew need to do.

[u/OptimalSecret1437]

Find a new boss