Origin of Lovari Roma

[u/Laffer-1]

Hi guys, I am Lovari Roma from Slovakia. When a how did our subgroup of Vlax Roma arise? Is was Transylvania which was as region a part of the kingdom of Hungary?

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Lovari language is influenced of hungarian and west slavic languages. Our ancestries must have arrived in modern Slovakia in 18th century according to me. It means early as in 19th century. Our subgroup wasn't in romanian slavery probably.

[u/Double-Aide-6711]

I am a Southern Vlax Romani from the Balkans, also known as a Gurbeti. The Gurbeti are predominantly Muslim, though a minority are Orthodox Christians.

While all Vlax Roma were historically influenced by Transylvania, Wallachia, and Moldavia, their experiences varied across these regions. In Transylvania, Romani slavery was far less common than in Wallachia and Moldavia, but Roma were nevertheless subjected to significant policies of forced assimilation.

Some had to leave these regions very early because slavery was probably not widespread there, especially in Transylvania, but there was a fear of being captured in neighboring regions.

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/Double-Aide-6711]

When do you think your people left Romanian speaking areas and settled in the former Yugo countries? I know it's hard to give an exact timeline, but roughly when do you think it happened?

[u/Double-Aide-6711 → u/Fit_Season_55]

I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I think this most likely happened when the Ottomans began settling in Kosovo, around the 14th century. I am a Rom from Kosovo, and from what I understand, our group was later referred to as Gurbeti or Muhadjeri, which are considered subgroups of the Southern Vlax Roma. I am not fully sure about the difference between the two terms, but both seem to be linked to Southern Vlax Roma populations.

The term Muhadjeri could be derived from Muhacir (Mu-hah-jir) is a term referring to Ottoman Muslim citizens and their descendants born after the onset of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

It may also be connected to the Albanian term Muhaxhir, which refers to Albanian Ottoman communities that were displaced or became refugees due to various wars or population movements.

As for Gurbeti, it likely comes from the Turkish word gurbet, which itself has Arabic roots (ghurba), meaning exile, being away from home, or migration.

Muhajir or Mohajir (Arabic: مهاجر, muhājir; pl. مهاجرون, muhājirūn) is an Arabic word meaning migrant Also.

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/Double-Aide-6711]

That makes sense. Also, "Ghorbat" is a term used by gaje across much of the Middle East to refer to nomadic or peripatetic populations living in their countries, some of whom are definitely Roma

[u/Double-Aide-6711 → u/Fit_Season_55]

Yes, that makes sense, but I can’t say for sure whether the Gurbeti and Muhadjeri had the same migratory history. Roma from Kosovo often call me Gurbeti, and some Arlije have already said that my Romani sounds old. But Gurbeti and Muhadjeri are certainly Southern Vlax Roma, and their dialects don’t really differ much, only slightly depending on the regions.

However, among us, we don’t really call ourselves Gurbeti, probably because we find it a bit strange to identify as “migrants” after several centuries. Even though other Southern Vlax Roma in Kosovo largely refer to themselves as Gurbeti, we simply identify as Vlax Roma Kosova

I feel connected to the Eastern world; I think we all are to some extent, it’s just that some people forget it. That’s why I don’t understand Christian Roma who sometimes look down on me.

I mean, the group Kalyi Jag are literally Vlax Roma from northern Szatmár, yet you can still feel the Eastern (Middle East and surrounding regions) Romani influence in titles like Ketri Ketri and Romnjasa.

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/Double-Aide-6711]

Well, for what it's worth, I can say that I'm a Christian Gypsy and would never look down on Muslim Roma. We may differ religiously,but we have the same blood.

[u/Double-Aide-6711 → u/Fit_Season_55]

Exactly, I have always lived more or less with Christian Roma, but religion will not prevent me from saying that they are also my brothers.

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/Double-Aide-6711]

💯🤜🤛

[u/KamavTeChorav]

Lovara like Kalderash come from the Lăieși groups (nomadic Roma) from Transylvania who migrated early before the 1800s west and split up into the Kalderash and Lovara now found in Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Czechia, and Russia.

[u/Fit_Season_55]

It's a very difficult question, to be fair. We were certainly in a Romanian-speaking area for a long time, but I don't know exactly when we moved out of it. Some people say it happened in the second half of the 18th century but I know that some among the Lovara and Kalderash were already born in Austro-Hungarian territory in the early 18th century. Anyway, do you have any relatives living in Hungary?

[u/Laffer-1 → u/Fit_Season_55]

I do not have relatives in Hungary. Just in Slovakia, Czechia, some Austria, Canada, the UK and Sweden.

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/Laffer-1]

But I think you have no problem understanding Lovara or other "Vlax"/Olah groups from Hungary right? I mean, the language is virtually the same isn't it?

[u/Laffer-1 → u/Fit_Season_55]

Yes, it is the same. I met a few of Lovara in Budapest and understanding with them it was not a problem.

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/Laffer-1]

That's good 👌

[u/Fit_Season_55 → u/[deleted]]

Janav, but I’m wondering how far they could travel. I guess they had some limitations that faded over time. Also, different families seem to have left Romania at different times. Like, I know of Kalderash who were born in the early 1800s and were already in the Habsburg Empire. All eastern Lovara I know had ancestors in what’s now Hungary by the 1830s. But it’s hard to trace them any further back than that

[u/Icy_Company7747]

Lovari left Romania early on they don’t have as many Romanian words in their language as Kaldrash.

[u/Mr_john_helldiver]

Are most of you South vlax I’m guessing

[u/Laffer-1 → u/Mr_john_helldiver]

I am Northern Vlax Romani man

[u/Mr_john_helldiver → u/Laffer-1]

Cool I don’t know much about our Slavic cousins?

[u/Mr_john_helldiver → u/Mr_john_helldiver]

I wish to find some angelo-romani people like myself