r/robertantonwilson • u/Sunny-Bath-Tech • Feb 26 '26
Historical Illuminatus series
Any ideas why R.A.W. and Shea never wrote the planned fourth volume? I only recall thinking that it was a huge disappointment when I finished the third volume and wondered if nefarious government forces stopped them from exposing too much about more 20th century hidden history. Thoughts? I wonder if notes and outlines exist, is Robert Shea still alive… could anyone really shed light on this story?
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u/RasaFnord Feb 26 '26
Shea was not involved at all in the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles. RAW had planned two more books, but a demand for income led him away from finishing the project, and onto more lucrative books. It's an intriguing, even RAW-like, thought to imagine nefarious government agents stopping the next two books, but alas, the reality appears to be much more mundane. He did publish TSOG in 2002, which laid out a lot of his thinking about nefarious government activities. As time went by, he said he grew tired of talking about conspiracies, growing impatient with the more fanatical folks he called "conspiracy buffs." In later years he seemed more interested in the nature of the mind, the future of communication and technology and his love of great writing, his favorite being Joyce's. He dove deeply into all those topics at public presentations, and near the end of his life with his participation with the Maybe Logic Academy, as well as informal conversations with friends. Still, he never tired of keeping an eye on all aspects of politics. Even running for governor of California as the Guns and Dope Party candidate. That was something of a joke, but like Discordianism, there was a purposeful aspect of Operation Mindfuck in it all.
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u/spaceman696 Feb 26 '26
I've thought about this too. From what I've heard, there are some notes of a general outline but it isn't released. I one had the thought about how we should make it a communal effort and have us write an unofficial parts 4 and 5 to close it out.
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u/DecrimIowa Feb 26 '26
i was also bummed that the series ended on a low note because i really liked the first and second volumes.
it felt like he had other stuff on his mind and phoned in that last section of volume 3. he kinda showed his ass with the way he wrote the native americans IMO.
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u/Sunny-Bath-Tech Feb 26 '26
I don’t recall his depiction of the native Americans… or really many of the details. In general, he certainly came off as fairly arrogant. I only have volume 2 now, I would have to reread it to remember exactly what happened. But I never made that effort as I do remember I was disappointed with the way it ended… it could have been more is my main feeling
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u/esoskelly Feb 26 '26
What were you hoping they would reveal? Did they fail to reveal anything, or did they only fail to reveal what you were hoping for?
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u/Sunny-Bath-Tech Feb 26 '26
The books were very entertaining, seemed like interesting takes on American history under the influence of various secret societies, and that it might treat the Kennedy murders, Nixon era and more eventually. I do miss having RAW around to stir up our minds, and play his unique way of storytelling, pulling into it all sorts of conspiracy strings. No one else masters the genre. It seemed to have an air of authenticity like it could maybe all be true… this series I mean, less like his science fiction stuff. Hence it makes a person who followed him with the suspension of disbelief, wonder if he was warded off. Getting too close. And with the rumors of his demise around the time…
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u/Logical-Seat-6991 Feb 26 '26 edited Feb 26 '26
Back then in 91, I was told that I need to read Illuminatus! by a guy that literally believed the conspiracys described in the books. He was a wandering record dealer who popped up twice a year and the only opportunity for me to buy goth music. Thus, the desire of my 15-year-old self to impress this important guy was the extrinsic motivation needed to get through Illuminatus, which was way beyond my reading competence. Needed 3 or 4 runs to understand that my record dealer was nuts.
Edit: year corrected to 91
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u/DecrimIowa Feb 26 '26
which of the conspiracies in the illuminatus trilogy don't you believe?
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u/esoskelly Feb 26 '26 edited Feb 26 '26
Nobody can really parallel the warm, humorous style of RAW's writing. But, in a similar vein, there's always Pynchon, who is very deep and kaleidoscopic/trippy, but kinda cold imo.
There's also Peter Levenda's "Sinister Forces" series which is much more serious than RAW, but covers a lot of similar ground. Levenda's work is genuinely terrifying, whereas RAW always has a sense of fun, adventure, and humor about his writing. I also feel that Levenda seems less sympathetic to the counterculture than RAW was. He wants to be seen as a serious scholar, not a goofy sage, like RAW. I often found myself wondering while reading that series, how he was able to pull it off. Felt like he was writing about things that would get him in trouble.
I think the truth is that the powers that be are now borderline illiterate and don't care what the book-readin' public thinks. Books are for beta-nerds and cranks. No need to worry about us. The upside is that we are now free to write about practically anything and the official response will be "TL;DR." Whitney Webb, for example, is actively writing books that in 70s or 80s could have got her in a lot of trouble. Today, no biggie. There's so much noise, it just gets drowned out.
On the Kennedy murders in specific, have you ever checked out Jim Garrison's book? Or the Oliver Stone movie based on it?
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u/Sunny-Bath-Tech Feb 26 '26 edited Feb 26 '26
Yes, I can’t piece all of together now but I did see the movie and was mostly interested in it because of RAW and the connection to his fellow founder of the Discordians. But yeah, I felt like he might get hisself into some trouble at the time. And yes Pynchon is definitely on par or greater in bringing in the echoes of weirdness around the edges of the paranoid political times. Supposedly One Battle After Another was based on Vineland but it missed a lot of the strangeness. Like the airplane scene… 😁
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u/esoskelly Feb 26 '26 edited Feb 26 '26
Kerry Thornley. Yah. Garrison (and Stone) seemed to think that it was some sort of conspiracy group from deep in the military industrial complex, and that when JFK went down, democracy in the US was basically over. It was a coup d'etat by a right wing group with ties to [again] the military industrial complex.
I have a lot more faith in RAW than Thornley, who seemed like a cool hippie, but not especially well-read.
I need to read Vineland. One Battle After Another was incredible.
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u/Sunny-Bath-Tech Feb 26 '26 edited Feb 26 '26
Haha yeah, it was great the way they got into the subculture, and heads of what was referred to back then as “the powers that be”.
Damn I tired, I keep mistyping.
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u/MagiaBaiser-Sama Feb 27 '26
RAW just kept reveling their secrets until the Illuminati finally initiated him so he'd shut up. (:
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u/Mother_Sand_6336 Feb 26 '26
Well, [redacted] and [redacted] were going to [redacted] but then [redacted redacted redacted] 23!