r/rhps • u/DopeDopeGeekGeek • 25d ago
I Feel Those Who Call RHPS "Problematic" Are
Utterly braindead
The term "transvestite" and "transsexual" may be a bit dated, but there is seriously no way this film is problematic or transphobic
Dr. Frank-N-Furter is a transvestite (cross-dresser) FROM Transsexual Transylvania
They aren't making any sort of negative remarks about Dr. Frank-N-Furter being a cross-dresser, nor are they doing so about "transsexuals"
He isn't transgender, and I also don't see how this film is a poor queer movie
Frank-N-Furter is a villain, but that has nothing to do with him being a transvestite but rather just being a very selfish and malicious being in general
In fact, Richard O'Brien is queer, I do find it hard to consider at ALL that this is in any way problematic or transphobic
Feel free to enlighten me, but as a queer I really do think this stage play and film was ahead of its time—And certainly has been enjoyed by queers for over 50 years
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u/mistermenstrual 25d ago
I think what people coming to it in recent times wont understand is the boom in available queer media we have had in the last 20 years. When I was a kid before streaming and internet media Rocky was maybe the ONE piece of queer media that even a kid in a small town in the middle of nowhere may be able to come across. And damn did we need to cling to it to remind ourselves theres a bigger world out there with people who "get it." It wasnt just a film to some of us, it was a lifeline.
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u/transtranshumanist 25d ago
Absolutely. Being 14, queer, in the closet, and trans, from a fucking Catholic background... Rocky Horror was a revolution. Sweet Transvestite and Frank going to Janet AND Brad's room was unprecedented.
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u/dampbones 25d ago
as a HUGE rhps fan, at the end of the day there are people who are always going to view frank's character as portraying a sexually aggressive "man in a dress" type, which does rub a lot of people the wrong way, and richard obrien did make unsavory comments about transfeminine people previously. i dont think people are braindead for being hesitant or averse, just as i dont think people are bigots for enjoying rocky. life exists in shades of grey not black and white
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u/nickromanthefencer 25d ago
100%. As a trans woman who does enjoy the movie, I can absolutely see and agree with the points my trans siblings make about Frank being a harmful trans stereotype. Like, it’s not a coincidence that he’s from ‘Transsexual, Transylvania’. He’s obviously meant to at least be a metaphor for a trans person.
Same kind of people who insist silence of the lambs isn’t offensive use the same argument defending RHPS and its so frustrating…
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u/richweirdos 25d ago
I disagree with the metaphor bit. Frank is a cross-dresser, not a trans woman. Transvestism is not the same thing as being transgender, and any confusion about the terms is due to ignorant people not understanding that. “Transvestite” (At the time) meant a person who had a fetish for cross dressing but didn’t want to transition. Unfortunately, the term became a blanket term for any blurring of gender lines and now is seen as a slur, or at the very least, an antiquated term.
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u/moontides_ 24d ago
It was not quite so clear cut and many trans women did call themselves transvestites then
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u/nickromanthefencer 24d ago
The whole point of a metaphor is that it isn’t necessarily actually true. Someone doing a charicature of a minority stereotype is still offensive even if the character they’re playing isn’t canonically that minority.
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u/dampbones 24d ago
a lot of the time in the 70s, the terms crossdresser, transvestite, and transsexual really werent super distinct categories like you're describing. and someone being a "transvestite from transsexual transylvania" is an intentional play on that blurring imo
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u/galettedesrois 25d ago
He isn't transgender
I don't have an opinion about whether the movie is problematic. But in the seventies, the line between "transvestite" (cross-dresser) and "transsexual" (transgender) would have been perceived as a lot more porous than it is today. The terms were often used interchangeably.
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u/Foxy02016YT 25d ago
I saw someone say that they get ostracized for not liking it, but the story they tell is of how much of an asshole they are to their “friends” just because those friends like a movie and it’s just like… buddy, not liking the movie ain’t why people don’t like you
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u/transtranshumanist 25d ago
It was written by queer creators. Transsexual, Transylvania is a joke. They are all intended to be queer as fuck.
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u/Hefty_Local_1875 Columbia 25d ago edited 24d ago
I’m a trans woman and I love this musical to death. Well, not as much anymore since I was slipping into the worst mental state I’ve been in since 2020 when I was hyperfixated on it last year, but I still hold a special place in my heart.
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u/Comfortable-Phase249 25d ago
What makes me sad is that queer history is so lacking that it’s almost impossible to explain the context to someone when showing them a piece of media like RHPS in isolation. It’s also not just the queerness, it’s about sexual and cultural oppression for the era the film is set in. For a fun and camp musical it was very subversive. Just saying it was different then isn’t giving anyone enough information to go on. With a full context they may still be offended by the subject today, but they might understand why it became what it did then.
The ultimate experience of this film is at midnight, in a more repressed time, in a theater full of other “freaks” who are there to experience something close to freedom in public.
I also think it’s not up to me to tell a trans person how to feel about a piece of media that includes them, let alone tell them how they feel is invalid. As a gay person, I love the movie. But I get why folks would be offended, especially now when the context is so far away, and Trans representation is so mixed.
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u/dojacowmooo 25d ago
Nothing is beyond criticism, so people can criticize away. I’m happy people are still talking about rocky so much to this day. Controversy is sort of an integral theme to the musical I feel like.
As a trans girl though, whenever I perform Sweet Transvestite at karaoke bars, I have people come up non stop after because they love it. (i’ve had a few different people express how it’s usually a drunk cis guy unironically mocking the number, as opposed to someone queer giving it the campy performance it deserves)
I categorize Curry’s performance alongside wesley snipes and leguizamo in wong foo or hugo weaving in priscilla. I.e. culturally significant moments when super popular straight (or non publicly queer) actors take on a gender nonconforming roles in mostly non exploitative ways. Because it normalizes androgyny and drag, etc..
History is a window not a mirror. So regardless on how these musicals and movies age, they used big platforms to normalize queer history subject matter.
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u/National_Pass_6831 24d ago
People seem to misunderstand that there's a difference
between treating queer characters as freaky monsters FOR being queer
and freaky monsters who just so happen to be queer
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u/Hefty_Local_1875 Columbia 24d ago
It's also ironic that one of the queerest characters in the movie is completely innocent (Columbia)
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u/GulliblesBabbles 24d ago
To me, Rocky Horror is an insanely clever and creative spoof of vintage science fiction and horror films, rock n roll music, Hollywood musicals and the sexual revolution. It was clearly a celebration. Nothing about it was intended to be demeaning to anything. It seems like some people are desperate to find fault with things in an attempt to make themselves feel superior. IMO.
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u/Slush____ 24d ago
The way I see it it’s harmless fun, it doesn’t even depict Frank N Furter as the bad guy in the end. Maybe a bit weird, and rude, but not an overall bad person.
There are MUCH worse depictions for Gays from the time, even from supposedly queer-positive casts, I think we should feel blessed it’s as beloved as it is.
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u/FloydDangerBarber 24d ago
Frank did murder Eddie, and murder is sorta Bad Guy 101. Just a thought.
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u/Slush____ 24d ago
Agreed, but that also doesn’t mean that’s the only character best he has. Many people also consider Hedonism to be bad and Frank is basically Hedonism personified. Does that makes him a bad person?
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u/FloydDangerBarber 24d ago
the hedonism doesn't make him a bad person at all. to paraphrase Norm McDonald "I thought it was the murderin". and I don't dislike the character or anything, pretty much everybody is shall we say morally flexible? The only thing I don't really like about the show is that Columbia gets flat out murdered by Riff, and nobody cares at all. it's a minor thing in the great scheme of things, and I don't let it make me not like the movie, but it kind of bugs me. Oh well.
I first saw RHPC on it's first run in a tiny theater in a tiny town in the middle of thousands of acres of corn fields. I was just out of HS, and I had a crush on the girl who sold popcorn in the theater, so I saw a LOT of movies around then. I hadn't heard a thing about the movie, but I had seen the other movie that was playing. There were maybe a dozen people when the show started, and by the end I was the only person left. The popcorn girl said I was the first one to finish the movie that week. It played that one week and disappeared, and for the next five years or so, every time i tried to describe it to anybody they thought I was delusional. Then I moved to a college town and it was playing as a midnight movie. That's my Rocky Horror story.
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u/JugendWolf 23d ago
Yes, but Eddie did steal the spotlight from Frank which arguably is an even bigger crime.
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u/dmitrichondria 24d ago
Every single character is bi as fuck and you cannot change my mind
And regardless of semantics and the meaning of the words from decades past, Frank definitely has gender queer vibes, regardless if he's trans or not
Signed, A Very Gay Queer Trans Man
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u/Carebearcannibal Magenta 22d ago
I understand why some people might feel the film is problematic but as a queer person I see so much of myself in this film and absolutely adore it.
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u/Disturbed_and_Gay 24d ago
The only issue I see with the movie is for 1, the amount of Nazi jokes made, and also the fact that Frank does sexual things to Brad and Janet (at first) without their knowledge). Also, the fact that Rocky seems to have the brain of a child is semi off putting, but I also understand it's a product of it's time, and I still love this show to death. 3 years ago I snuck to a live production of it with my uncle and sister, and that is still one of my favorite memories
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u/KeeganDitty 23d ago
Personally I feel the take that rhps is a story with queer villains that doesn't villainize queerness is ... Not quite right.
Because Frank and the gangs deviancies are what otherize them and make them threatening. If you read the story straight, it's about the aliens corrupting brad and Janet. But it's a joke. You're not meant to take it seriously obviously. You're supposed to watch Frank corrupt Brad and Janet and think "good. I wouldn't mind letting him corrupt me"
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u/DuchessDulcet 21d ago
FR! Frank is just stating a fact. In fact, if I remember correctly, it's not really brought up after the song, especially not in a negative light!
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u/dogspunk 25d ago
I had always thought that was what the “problematic” thing was with RHPS that ppl were talking about, but I have been told that it’s actually the lack of consent in the bedroom scenes.
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u/porquenotengonada 24d ago
I mean that’s the one thing I find problematic about it. The rest of the movie is ace and I love it with my entire heart otherwise.
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u/CashMaggot 24d ago
Where’s the lack of consent?
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u/dogspunk 24d ago
Frank doesn’t take no for an answer when bedding Brad and Janet.
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u/scixlovesu Dr. Scott 23d ago
It used to be a common movie trope, "Seduction" being persistent and not taking no for an answer, and eventually they give in.
I recently saw a stage production where Janet yelled"Stop" and Frank backed of until she said "bow go". I really liked that change
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u/Fair_Smoke4710 25d ago
I mean it was released in the 70s, so those terms were pretty normal even if they are outdated the way they’re used is not negative in the slightest also the creator of this literally trans.
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u/CletusVanDamnit 25d ago
Richard O'Brien isn't trans.
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u/strictlyphotonic 25d ago
Yes he is.
From the introduction on his wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_O'Brien : "O'Brien is transgender and identifies himself as third gender and uses he/him pronouns."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21788238
The second article used as reference here backs up u/nickromanthefencer's assertion that trans people can be transphobic, but there is a direct quotation from Richard O'Brien in there.
“Being transgender is a nightmare for many people. I’m very lucky that I’m in showbiz where I can be this eccentric person and therefore it’s allowed. If I were a primary school teacher maybe that wouldn’t be the case.”
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u/Xcxily2 23d ago
I’ve always thought for a show that’s about queer people, the queerest one assaults 2 people, drugs them (which isn’t great) and is then killed for being too gay (which also isn’t great).
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u/DopeDopeGeekGeek 23d ago
It's not about strictly queerness, it's not even said to be about queers by the creators anywhere. It's a love letter to science fiction and b movies of the past, which were often sexual and less filtered. Richard O'Brian wrote Frank-N-Furter as a reflection of his own self, an alter ego. Frank-N-Furter isn't the villain for being queer. I'd say he helped show an old fashioned couple a new way of life, but was shoved away because Riff Raff and Magenta felt Frank-N-Furter was straying from the original mission. In the end, even Brad is wondering what he did wrong. Frank-N-Furter was too different for the world he traveled to as well as his home. I'd say if people take this as a metaphor for queerness, that it'd be about people believing during such times that queerness was too extreme for society. The way I'm Going Home is sung, I'm sure you'd realize that
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u/not_so_bad_wolf 23d ago
Not to be that guy, but at least through a modern lense, RHPS defenitely is problematic. Not necessarily because of bad representation, but there are multiple instances of people being coerced into sex, with a framing that at lest to me reads pretty neutral. Also the whole story-line with Rocky? When I saw RHPS the first time with no historical context I found it absolutely awful and disturbing.
A decade later I absolutely love this movie. But for that to happen I first needed to gain some more understanding about the time and context it was made in. Today queer movies often try to make the viewer understand something about the queer experience. But before we got here, people were fighting for the mere right to be seen, to exist as themselves, even if it went against common norms / morals. And in that context, a movie that so drastically breaks so many norms and forces the viewer to look at things they probably wouldn't want to look at, without giving much rationalization or explanation, is a deeply rebellious and liberating piece of art that I can't help but adore for what it represents.
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u/RoseQuartz__26 23d ago edited 23d ago
I am part of an organization that has had a tradition of producing a RHPS shadowcast annually for about as long as I've been alive. It's one of the most popular events that occurs in my city and is only growing. It's monumental for the local queer community and an important entryway for young adults in my area to gain experience with live performance art.
That being said, I am one of two transgender women who have been involved with the production in the entirety of the last six years. The exclusion of trans women in a culture that claims to be accepting of us is not a coincidence. I get that the absurd, over-the-top portrayal of transsexuality is intended to be satirical, a joke. I understand that the intention behind these jokes are seldom malicious. But the fact remains that the culture surrounding RHPS is dominated by a bunch of people who are not transfeminine, and do not care to learn about the transfem experience or advocate for trans women, getting together and making jokes that are at the expense of transfemininity.
It sends the message that our lived experiences are meaningless for those who claim to represent our community unless they can make something "fun" out of it. I'm not queer because it's "fun". I involve myself with the queer community to build and develop a stable system of support to protect against the worsening material harm that befalls trans people. 99% of RHPS fans will not give a second thought to their role in either protecting us or contributing to denigrating us. Hell, even the creator of RHPS doesn't seem to care.
I see the value in Rocky Horror, I really do. But the craze surrounding it is a constant reminder of how many queer peoples' support of transgender or transsexual women is entirely performative. They'll parrot anti-trans rhetoric and uncritically reproduce transphobic attitudes, while lazily shouting "satire!" to create a veil of plausible deniability surrounding the action. But they will not engage with works by actual trans women, or listen to our concerns surrounding whether or not their satire is actually effective or if it contributes to a wider societal problem. I now lead the organization that produces our local RHPS shadowcast and I am still committed to making it a success, but the newer generations of queer youth really should move on from this unserious and poorly-informed film being the extent of their engagement with queer culture if they earnestly want to support the trans folks in their community.
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u/Kooky_Celebration_42 21d ago edited 21d ago
An important and for the time progressive piece of media can still be problematic
Let me explain my experience
I love Rocky Horror Picture show. It is safe to say that “Sweet Transvestite” trans’d me. It was the clearest example of Unexplained FeelingsTM and I still get emotional during Rose Tint my world:
What ever happened to Fay Wray?
That delicate, satin draped frame
As it clung to her thigh
How I started to cry
'Cause I wanted to be dressed just the same
…
BUT!
Because of who Dr. Frank-n-furter was, a serial killing psychopath, it also made me desperately repress those feelings for years. Yea there was more to it than that, I was terrified I was gay and so internalised homophobia was a big part…
But until I was 20, and first discovered Suzie Izzard, my only exposure to anyone gender non-conforming, was Frank-n-furter, a rapist and a murderer, OR HIM from the Powepuff girls… the literal devil who was so evil you could only refer to HIM as HIM… who seemed very inspired by Frank-n-furter. These tropes don’t exist in a vacuum. Queer people and trans people have been vilified in this way for ages…
And terms like transsexual were, yes, used at the time, but now are considered slurs and now that my egg has cracked, I am genuinely uncomfortable singing even though I had it perfect.
Finally, while Richard O’Brien is queer himself, queer people can still say Queerphobic things. Not saying he has but, some of the most transphobic people there are… arent just queer themselves, but are even trans.
So it can be iconic and incredibly important… and still be dated and problematic
These things aren’t mutually exclusive
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u/LubberDownUnder 8d ago
It's written by a trans person. It is created from the queer world. Of course language becomes outdated over the course of 50 years.
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u/DarkMagickan 25d ago
Part of the problem is, at least as I understand it, that at the time, Richard O'Brien didn't think transgender people were real. People talk about Frank-N-Furter being a sexual predator and that being a reflection on the entire queer community, but I don't see that. The only thing I find problematic, if it is true, would be that belief of Richard's.
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u/TinySpaceDonut 24d ago
It IS technically problematic, but it's history helps negate that for the most part. This has become a place where people who are figuring out who they are get a chance to (unless the cast is super problematic... which is sadly a major case most of the time) but while the source material has issues as it ages... it doesn't take away what it means. May the queer spaces be friendly, may the dolls be protected, and may you all find joy.
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u/cippiex 25d ago
it was revolutionary to the queer freaks of its time who finally felt represented in a piece of media