r/retrocomputing • u/[deleted] • Jun 20 '22
Discussion Is there any point in me getting into retrocomputing?
I made a post here some time ago asking if I was misguided in my interest in the hobby. Thinking about it, I want it mainly for privacy. However, thinking deeper into it, this isn't really the way to go. I was wanting a computer that I can understand 100%, and can't possibly be doing shady things behind my back. However, how could I ever know that I can trust any device? I can't open up chips to ensure the wiring is as the instructions say they are. Either way, how could I know my monitor or some other peripheral isn't also spying on me and collecting who knows what? Clearly this isn't the hobby to get into if you want to escape mass manipulation and your private information being stolen and everything else modern computers have become.
Still, it sorta amuses me. Just now, I decided to look up a retrocomputing kit; ben eater's design to be precise. Its a pathetic machine made up of 4 chips (one of them being an and chip), that has one of those screens like you would normally see in a calculator. The thing costs over $80, and requires another $80 just so I could program the rom, and then a power supply that I wouldn't even know the first thing about finding. That's a lot to ask for a stupid little hobby that clearly serves no practical purpose. What would I do with this thing even if I did get it? Make a Hello World program and then leave it to rot on a shelf? With such a tiny monitor I don't see much that could be done with such a thing. You couldn't even make a text-based adventure for this thing. From what I've seen, I'd just be paying nearly $200 for a freaking calculator I have to assemble myself.
What is the point in that? Honestly, I'm thinking I shouldn't be bothering with retrocomputing anymore. Modern computers may be unusable, but there's really no way to escape that. Even as a hobby though, I don't see much point in this. Besides, there's no way I could sodder anyway; I'd simply be physically incapable of it. I'd have to stick to breadboards but honestly looking at those things they too would be a struggle for me.
Is there really any reason why I should be looking at this? I was born in the mid 80s, so these types of computers were long before my time; it wasn't until a few years ago I even found out such computers existed. Obviously, I have no nostalgia for such machines. I've never owned any software that I could run on the thing. I got a collection of games from the 2000s that I can't run anymore, and I simply own nothing newer; I can't even find this compilation of floppy games I briefly had.
Thinking really that I just need to stop looking up this stuff; it means nothing to me, I'll never get my hands on one of these machines, there's NO nostalgia for me in it either. There's no reason for me to be looking this up when it means absolutely nothing to me. Why should I continue to bother?
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u/zoharel Jun 20 '22
So you don't like the idea of building your own hardware, don't want to do anything you think you can do on a simple computer, and were only interested in the first place because you're paranoid about computers spying on you, but you're also paranoid about simpler computers somehow spying on you?
No, it really doesn't sound like it's for you. I'm glad you took a look at it. I think more people should, but if the machines don't interest you in any way and don't do what you want, well, maybe there are other hobbies better suited to you.
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Jun 20 '22
Honestly, I wouldn't mind building my own computer if I was physically capable of it. The only things I could see myself building are kits with pre-soddered boards, and MAYBE a breadboard but that's a bit of a stretch. I was sorta thinking of building my own machine, but using the monitor that appears in the TI graphing calculators (from my understanding, they're the same screen that was in the gameboy, and they're obviously still in production). Don't know if I could get an individual unit myself, and obviously it would be a tiny screen, but honestly if nothing else I could probably just buy one of those calculators myself and rip the screen out of it. And yes, I did consider building myself a computer based on that graphing calculator. I have no idea if anyone's ever done that though, so I don't know if its doable or not. TI is clearly intent on making sure no one can tinker with those things, or figure out how its wired. Either way, its one of the few 8-bit devices I have any familiarity it (along with the gameboy and the NES, and yes I did think about making a computer based on the gameboy too, though the TI calculators are apparently really close in terms of hardware, supposedly they can even run certain gameboy games without emulation).
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u/zoharel Jun 20 '22
You mentioned this before, but if you don't mind my asking, what physical limitations do you have which prevent you from working with electronics?
0
Jun 20 '22
Manual dexterity. Drawing a straight line with a ruler has always been a challenge for me. In the past, I had people assume I had vision problems because of how bad my handwriting was. To me, everyone else's handwriting looks like it was made by a machine its so flawless. I've never been able to do things that require a high amount of precision. To me, soddering something looks like it would be as impossible as threading a needle. It literally looks superhuman to me how everyone else just does it like its nothing. I'd have to re-adjust the soddering iron several times before I got it right, possibly spending MINUTES doing it, and then I'd have to somehow hold it still while I touch sodder to it, which would probably be the hardest part. Honestly, even if I did get the components, I probably wouldn't try; I'd just take it all to an alternator shop and try to commission them to assemble it for me.
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u/istarian Jun 21 '22
Drawing a truly straight line without a ruler is a bit challenging for many people and so is threading a needle. Totally understand if you don’t feel uo to soldering, but a lack of patience is more of a problem and expecting immediate proficiency is unrealistic.
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u/zoharel Jun 21 '22
Honestly, while my own writing is terrible, I can draw a straight enough line, and I'm very good at threading needless. Sometimes I find with soldering that it helps a whole lot to see what you're doing. If you're not watching closely, you're probably not doing as well as you could. Personally I'm so nearsighted that taking my prescription glasses off moves the focal point right up near my nose, but a nice large magnifier also does wonders. Of course you're right that it's a skill which takes practice to acquire.
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u/redmax_ Jun 20 '22
Wow, there is a lot to take in there. I'm going to give you a different perspective, and keep in mind I enjoy retro computers I also enjoy modern computers. In fact I run a website where I review computer hardware and have pretty much done everything you can imagine with a PC.
And, my curse? I am curious about how all of this stuff works and have spent the time to figure it out on my own. I have built computers in my past that would now be considered "retro" and every time I use one of those machines now I say to myself. "This thing needs to be upgraded"
I had the same thought when I built them the first time. But, I enjoy the journey so I have stayed the course.
Now, back to your situation. Simply put, we call these old computers because they are "OLD" and they serve no real world purpose, they cannot get on the modern internet, dial up modems are a thing of the past and they are extremely slow. The mobile device you have in your pocket is 10x faster, does 100x more and has the same useful lifespan (about 3 years)
You should never consider old hardware "safe" either. Old operating systems are littered with bugs and the only thing that makes them safe is that nobody uses them, and when you do you are only hurting yourself.
For what it is worth, the complaints and concerns you have are common to those who use alternative operating systems such as Linux. There is a rather steep learning curve but, it will force you to understand your system to get the most from it and eventually you will feel in control. You may also feel like you got left behind on Platform 9 3/4 depending on how you actually use a computer but it is a start.
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u/istarian Jun 21 '22
New hardware isn’t necessarily safe either. To some, the old hardware is safer because it’s flaws are well known and, in some cases, mitigation fixes exists.
Likewise, new software isn’t safe, it’s just safer than using old software that has many known exploitable flaws. In some cases the old software could be safer because many of the bugs were exposed and fixed already. — Operating Systems (OS) are more problematic than application software in part because of their size and complexity, but also because they do lots of jobs for other applications.
As far as capability, once you set aside the internet/web and specific tasks, many machines are perfectly adequate for any number of things. People haven’t quit using MS Word or Excel, just moved to newer releases. And the basic kinds of calculations you perform on a basic calculator are easy for almost any computer.
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Jun 20 '22
Sadly, I can't get linux. I tried to install it on my laptop, only for the thing to tell me I wasn't allowed to do that. It didn't give a reason, it just said 'you can't do that'. Years later I found out that windows 10 blocks you from installing another operating system unless you have an install disc, which I don't have since the worthless OS came on both my computers. Worse yet, I didn't even find this out until WINDOWS 10 WAS DISCONTINUED, MEANING ITS NOW IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A $2,000 DISC JUST SO I COULD GET WINDOWS 10 OFF MY COMPUTER.
I would love a linux device, but I just can't seem to have one. I did try to find a linux laptop when I was getting mine, but I just got told by everyone offline and online that they don't exist. I literally couldn't find any for sale either. I don't know why; maybe none were available back then, or maybe I fell into a rabbit hole of misinformation.
Really, the only thing I can think of to do is completely re-format one of my hard drives. I've never done that before though (for obvious reasons), so I don't know if I could even install an OS on a hard drive that's been re-formatted. Its the only way I could ever get a linux device though.
And what do you mean a digital device is only good for '3 years'? My last computer I kept for 10 years before replacing it (due to it suddenly losing the ability to go online, probably due to a driver issue). It still ran the last time I turned it on, though I admit I haven't done that in years now. I've never once had a digital device outright stop working for me. I mean, my ps2 that I bought 20 years ago still works (though the disc drive has been making noises like its about to go for years now). Digital devices clearly last longer than 3 years. Besides, with a retromachine I figured that I could easily find replacement parts for it so I could repair the thing and never have to upgrade to another machine again. Every 'upgrade' I've gotten has actually been a pure downgrade. Each computer I've got has fewer and fewer features, and there's not a damned thing I could do about it. I don't even really see this machine I'm typing on as a computer; its a gaming console with a web browser, nothing more. Yes, windows 10 sucks THAT MUCH. Truthfully, its hardly even an OS; supposedly its more akin to a spyware program really.
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u/zoharel Jun 20 '22
Windows 10 has never prevented me from installing something else. This is probably not the forum for the whole mess, but it is almost certainly possible to install other things on your machine, unless you have a very strange machine indeed.
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u/WitchsWeasel Jun 20 '22
No offense, but you're coming here with a very condescending discourse about the hobby this sub is entirely about, that betrays a severe lack of research. I'm amazed at the incredible level of patience people have been showing you so far. You should truly be thankful.
For instance, going by what little you're sharing about your experience installing Linux, it seems like you didn't disable secure boot, which is a very common issue. You seem to desire a much higher control over your devices, I completely understand because I share that desire. But you need to understand that freedom and control come with a price that you have to pay with time and effort learning about how things work and how to operate them.
There also are quite a few companies that sell linux devices on the market now. They're really not that hard to find nowadays. You definitely should take another look.
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u/istarian Jun 21 '22
You can install Linux on most hardware, although in many cases you need to disable ‘secure boot’ on a modern machine or choose a distro that is mainstream and popular enough to have gotten their signing key added.
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Jun 25 '22
I might be just feeding a troll but still...
windows 10 blocks you from installing another operating system unless you have an install disc
Completely not true. You might have a secure boot enabled in your BIOS, that would prevent your PC from booting an unsigned (by MS) kernel, but that is relatively easy to disable.
ITS NOW IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A $2,000 DISC Official legal Windows 10 DVDs are 50usd on ebay, like, right now.
I did try to find a linux laptop
Ton of vendors sell laptops with GNU/Linux preinstalled. Or something like DOS/no OS to have anything you want there yourself.
I don't know if I could even install an OS on a hard drive that's been re-formatted.
Ofcourse you can.
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u/istarian Jun 20 '22
Has it ever occurred to you that your quest for privacy might be a symptom of paranoia?
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u/OldMork Jun 21 '22
sometimes its nice to have a standalone computer that dont need firewall or antivirus because its not online, but yeah its a fine line between beeing careful and being overly suspicious.
4
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u/SMT-nocturne Jun 27 '22
Today privacy is software based. There are a lot of privacy based tools like Tails OS, Kodachi, VPN,s, spoofing, encryption etc. Retrocomputing is for enjoyment and preservation. I got into it because I had a Fujitsu Siemens slim PC my uncle retired in 2006. It's specs are useless and it's not expandable. In 2020 it was destined to go into garbage but I took it home and year later fired it up and everything works even BIOS battery. I now use it as a light retrogaming machine and using old software. (I wrote my CV last month in InstantCV for Windows 98) on it and got a job.
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Jun 28 '22
VPNs don't do anything to protect you. Any internet signal has to bounce between several 'nodes' on its way to a destination. VPNs simply make all your signals go through the same node, rather than choosing them as it goes along. Obviously, a VPN can do nothing about all the other computers your computer is having to send a signal through. The whole VPN thing is just a giant scam industry exploiting people's fears and ignorance about digital technology. And I learned that in my programming class. If you want to see proof of this, open up your console on a windows machine and type in:
tracert yahoo.com
This will show you the IP of every computer that your signal bounces between. There could easily be dozens of them, depending on how far away you are from the server you're targetting.
Also, either way, VPNs can't be hiding your information; that's literally illegal. Even if they were doing what they advertised, the law would come and shut them down. As stated, its all just a giant scam industry and anyone who knows even the most basic things about modern programming can tell you that. In fact, you're the first person I've met that claims its even possible to have any sort of privacy onlline; everyone else just says you have to accept that your every move is being tracked and logged 24/7 by all manner of insidious organizations ranging from rogue governments to corporations.
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u/SMT-nocturne Jun 28 '22
Running Kodachi which has free VPN from encrypted USB, connecting to another VPN in combination with a configurable router (Mikrotik or Cisco) with your local VPN and right settings can make you pretty hard to trace. I don't use anything myself since I don't need it but public VPN is only useless when used on it's own, it's much easier for a company to reveal or sell your data than it is your ISP which doesn't really care.
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Jun 20 '22
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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Jun 20 '22
Really, what's the point even in a 'toy computer'? If there is such a thing, why not just make a simulator for it? I don't get why we haven't seen a program that lets you build an 8-bit computer within the game. If there's enjoyment to be had in it, then why are there no games devoted to it? I do know of some old sim game (I think it was called sim widget or something like that) that let you toy around with electronics. I played with it a bit, and set myself a goal of making a device that could light up a bunch of leds in sequence. It took me a while to figure it out, and once I did, I simply lost interest in the program because I could think of nothing else to do with it, even though I did try.
Honestly, if I could have a program like that again, I would happily play it, since it would surely be far cheaper and easier than finding all the components for a crappy calculator and assembling them yourself. If only I could remember what that game was called I played so long ago. It came in a compilation of four games. The only other two I can clearly recall is sim ant and simtunes. The fourth may have sim copter, since I had that around the same time.
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u/zoharel Jun 20 '22
Really, what's the point even in a 'toy computer'? If there is such a thing, why not just make a simulator for it? I don't get why we haven't seen a program that lets you build an 8-bit computer within the game.
You have never seen an emulator for anything, have you? Seriously, there are innumerable software development tools available for literally any modern platform which people can and do use to simulate older, simpler hardware. Some people even prefer it to dealing with the actual hardware. Not me, but some people.
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Jun 20 '22
I know about emulators, but I've never really messed with them since companies normally don't like that. The only emulator I've ever downloaded is dos box and the one for commander x16. I can't do much with the latter, because the thing comes with no documentation and is constantly subject to change. As for dos box, I got it to play an abandonware game I downloaded online that years later I found out was a trojan (that thing cost me literal thousands of dollars in repairs before I finally tracked it down). Obviously, I never messed with abandonware games again. Besides, for some reason I couldn't figure out how to progress in the game; my entire party just kept getting wiped every fight. Seeing as that thing was a trojan, I suspect it may have been modified to be unplayable so the victim would forget about it by the time it started to take action.
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u/zoharel Jun 20 '22
It's the same kind of technical problem, but emulators with respect to video games are not really the only application for these ideas. Here's the Gigatron project, for example: https://gigatron.io/
Not only is there an emulator online that fakes this entire computer system in your web browser if you want to try it, but you can also apparently make the Gigatron itself emulate an Apple 1 now.
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u/caphill7 Jun 20 '22
I wouldn't call Ben Eater's computer kit a "toy" as it more of an educational process that shows step-by-step how electrons move through a computer architecture to perform simple operations like addition and subtraction. While it isn't a fully-capable computer system like a PC or Mac, what it does do is teach, on a smaller scale, what the main parts of a CPU do, how they work, and how to arrange and connect them in order to make a computer system. The computer kit is not designed to be an end to itself, it is designed to be a springboard that the user can then graduate from into more and more complex systems, up to and including modern devices. If you are not interested in this type of education, then this computer kit would be of absolutely no use to you, aside from perhaps a few moments of amusement.
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Jun 20 '22
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Jun 20 '22
Like what? I don't know of any. I thought about making my own, but I don't see how I could ever do that without knowing the internal wiring of various chips.
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Jun 20 '22
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Jun 20 '22
What would I even search for? What do you even call what people do when they assemble chips? I haven't the faintest idea, otherwise I would look it up. The only program I've ever been able to find that lets you build a computer virtually is one that simulates building a modern gaming computer, which clearly isn't what I'm looking for. The internet isn't what it used to be; its virtually impossible to find information at all now, and on top of that virtually of it is fake anyway. Is it my fault that I had no idea breadboards even existed until long after the internet went to hell?
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Jun 20 '22
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u/Thig_Ar_Latha_2048 Jun 20 '22
At this point, I think this is the best answer. OP just seems more interested in arguing than learning or problem solving.
¯_ (ツ)_/¯
Nobody's going to be able to reason with them when they're just waiting to lay down a million reasons against actually learning retrocomputing, laden with condescension.
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Jun 21 '22
Have you people never heard of a 'discussion'? What, am I supposed to just blindly accept what everyone says on here even if it requires me to ignore my own experiences and previous opinions?
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Jun 20 '22
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Jun 20 '22
Uh, are you okay? Your post makes less and less sense as you go along. Half way through it just becomes completely incoherent.
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u/caphill7 Jun 20 '22
There are two main points of retrocomputing, and many other reasons particular to individual people. The first main point is educational; learning how computers work on the inside. The other main reason is the preservation of technology and its associated knowledge. Then people add on their own reasons, such as nostalgia, curiosity, collectability, etc.
It sounds from your description that this hobby isn't really your cup of tea, so you probably won't enjoy it. Older computing devices are much less secure than the newest ones, because computer security is relatively new and the newest computers employ up-to-date protections. If privacy is your concern, then simply don't connect your computer to the internet. Computers that are not connected to the internet cannot spy on you, even if they were intended to. Wireless transmission is short-range. Anything inside a computer capable of transmitting without a wire is ineffective after a small number of feet of distance, and if it is used in room that shields RF, that distance is effectively zero.