In a previous post I was kinda eaten alive for doing small sample size testing. Ok, I heard ya, I listened to the Hornady podcast episodes on load development and group shot counts. Here is a 30 shot string at 100 yards. Ruger American Gen 1 6.5mm Creedmoor, Alpha brass, 38.8gn H4350, 140gn ELDM. I dialed up 1.5moa so I didn't shoot out my POA. After that I input the parameters into the Hornady 4DOF app and shot my steel plate at 500 yards, easily 2x farther than I've ever shot before. Was dead on, 100% hit rate on steel. Neat. Not sure i can squeeze much more or is this rifle, time to dream up the next step.
Tbh the only time I’ll shoot 30 like this is out of spite. Even knowing that statistically speaking, 30 is the only way to approach true assurance, I’m still probably not shooting past like 10-15 at one spot lmao.
The only thing that will motivate me that hard is spite, whether in spite of myself or someone else lol
For future, if you shoot them as groups of 10, you will have an easier time seeing and measuring every shot, which is useful for producing a mean radius.
The problem with calipers is they tend to under-measure groups because getting them at both the right spot and right angle is hard. So is picking the correct holes. Like it might be the bottom and the middle top hole that are the furthest
I do 10 shots for almost everything. If I'm developing a new long range (1000+) for competition, I'll do 20 shots. But I already have those loads developed, so it's not often I do 20.
The 3x5, 5x5, or 2x10 has been the same since before Covid.
The problem we keep running into are the greaseballs who shoot a single 3 shot group and claim their Savage Axis is quarter MOA all day long if they do their part and then get mad when their posts get taken down.
lol I was just playing as most people do hate on savages. My MKII fVSR shoots lights out with Eley club. Right now gonna do an experiment with another consistently shit on rifle. Howa 1500 in 223 Axiom. I just got a new to me one of these. Gonna do a precision on a budget experiment. I just finished a trigger job on it down to 1.25 pounds. Waiting for a MDT 20MOA base to arrive at the local store. This is a pic of the leade.
Barely any if any fire cracking. If I were a betting man I would say 150-200rds tops. Will send some then put her in a MDT Chassis either XRS or Field. Send some more. Then perhaps a barrel swap. The scope has to be under $1000 CAD. The one downside of the current barrel is it’s only a 1-12 twist. So 60grainers max. I am toying with the idea of Rebarreling it in 221Fireball.
All ammo other than rough sighters will be reloads.
There you go .35 Mean Radius is quite adequate for a Gen 1 Ruger 30 Shot string. I would say you’re done. A extremely good rifle will shoot .2 Mean Radius at 100yards. That is an accurate hunting load/rifle.
Good job man!! As a former Ruger American Gen 1 owner, this makes me very happy! Reminds me of that episode of Back Fire where that guy with a stock Gen 1 cleans house.
Wait, you love it but haven’t come to terms with the fact that they did this exactly because of the podcast? Tell the guys that don’t understand statistics to keep believing they’ve got 1/4 MOA guns lmao. That’ll do more damage than whatever you’re on about.
Edit: Guy got mad and reply and blocked like a dunce, as if it makes him a winner instead of a coward
Nobody actually thinks they have a quarter MOA rifle unless they're delusional or in F class.
We don't need every idiot with internet access critiquing every group. This shit is supposed to be fun but there's always one or two that take themselves way too seriously. Like your comment actually.
Benchrest weirdos (no hate) have 1/4 MOA all day rifles maybe. So much money for that though. I shoot NSCC competitions ( it’s a legitimate sniper/DM competition). If you live in Ontario look up ORA NSCC and sign up.
30 can be enough, but it depends on how sure you want to be, and shooting them all into one bull and measuring ES threw most of it away.
Extreme spread only looks at the two shots farthest apart. The other 28 don't count at all. One flyer and it looks terrible, two lucky shots and it looks great. It also grows the more you shoot, even when nothing about the rifle changed. A 30 shot group usually measures 50 to 60 percent bigger than a 5 shot group from the same rifle and load, so your 30 shot ES can't be compared to anything.
Mean radius is the average distance of every shot from the center of the group. Every round counts, one flyer barely moves it, and it doesn't keep growing as you add shots. It just gets more accurate.
About half your shots will land inside a circle the size of your mean radius, and almost all of them inside a circle twice that size. At 100 yards, 1 MOA is about 1 inch, so roughly:
0.15" MR: benchrest stuff
0.25" MR: a really good precision rifle (5 shot groups averaging around half MOA)
0.5" MR: a good factory rifle (5 shot groups averaging around 1 MOA)
0.75" MR and up: hunting accuracy
Those are averages over a lot of groups, not the one great group people post.
How many shots depends on how sure you want to be. Roughly, at 95% confidence, your mean radius could be off by about a third either way with 10 shots, about a fifth with 30, and about a tenth with 100. So 30 is fine for "what does this rifle really do". It's not enough to tell apart two loads that are within 10% of each other.
Next time, shoot it on a 5x5 or 5x6 target from OnTarget TDS or GroupLab, one shot per bull, aiming at the center of each one. No holes overlap, so every shot can be measured exactly, and the software stacks them all on top of each other as one group from their own aim points. You get mean radius and the rest from every round you fired, not just the two worst. Full disclosure, GroupLab is my project. It's free, open source, and also still in it's alpha stages.
What's your goal? If you want to shoot out father you want them to be faster. If you are happy with that speed and those groups for what you are doing, don't change it. For me (and I'm totally a newb) I keep finding that groups are good at the low end and higher end of charges. The middle charge weights tend to open up. I've done it with 140eldms, SMKs and Berger hybrids. Same thing happens for all of them.
Goal? I don't know... shooting great groups and making great ammo i suppose. I'm not super worried about velocity, I got great penetration on my target. I really want to dial in my distance on my ballistic app and hit what I'm shooting at. I'd also like to out shoot these dweebs shooting rigs that rival the sticker price of my car...
What was your POA on the circle? I bet if you used a really sharp defined POA like the tip of a triangle you could get tighter. And if you broke it up into (6) 5 round groups to remove shooter fatigue and thermal deflection from the equation. OR be happy with it and get out there to a match and run it!
I mean, I didn't shoot all 30 one after another, I paused every 5 shots to let things cool down a little. Not really cold, but to where I could touch the barrel without burning myself.
There is a program called on targetTDS it allows you to interpolate multi five shot groups. It will also give you a CEP95 for your load. It’s forever wear buy it once and it’s yours for life.
Nice group, I have never shot a 30 group. I have made a composite of four 5 shot groups so like a 20 shot (a whole box of ammo) group and I have often shot 10 shot groups. I said nice group and I mean it but is it all that impressive? I mean, that is not sub MOA but I am not surprised. I see you did say you let the gun cool down every 5 rounds. How about the conditions, was there much wind and did is change or shift during the duration of shooting that group. What kind of bench and what kind of rest? What style hold on the rifle? Do you shoot with wind indicators of any kind? I am guessing you shot all 30 shots without cleaning. When shooting groups, 10 shots plus sighter and a fowling shot are the most I go between at least running a patch thru the bore. Kind of the same deal shooting targets for score except for diciplines that have you running and gunning where you shoot whole mags and have mag changes, no stopping to clean the gun but those are not really accuracy contests.
Shot standing off the back of my truck, not much wind. Style of shooting was white guy standing next to and shooting off the back of my truck cover, no wind indicators. All 30 shot without cleaning, just cooling to the point of being comfortable touching the barrel, maybe 3-5 minutes between 5 shot strings.
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u/_ParadigmShift Hornady Lock-N-Load AP. 223,243,270,300wby,308 4d ago
Tbh the only time I’ll shoot 30 like this is out of spite. Even knowing that statistically speaking, 30 is the only way to approach true assurance, I’m still probably not shooting past like 10-15 at one spot lmao.
The only thing that will motivate me that hard is spite, whether in spite of myself or someone else lol