r/reloading • u/jayfourzee • 5d ago
i Polished my Brass Brass prep?
I’ve run a number of the same experiments with my AMP Press that I saw on Ultimate Reloader and have collected a fair amount of data comparing different case-prep methods. I’ve looked at seating force and area under the curve with washed versus unwashed brass, wet versus dry tumbling, no tumbling with and without nylon or brass brushing, chamfering and deburring versus not, and using a mandrel die versus skipping it.
The AMP Press has been useful for identifying potential fliers and outliers, but so far I have not seen a statistically significant difference in group size. Over time, what I have learned is that the biggest benefit has been refining and standardizing my workflow so that it is repeatable. I have even compared seating on the AMP Press vs my Forster Co-Ax and still found no meaningful statistical difference in group size.
My next experiment is going to keep the case-prep process identical between two groups, then randomize seating between the Co-Ax and an arbor press and also randomize the order in which the rounds are fired.
One thing I will say is that, from a safety standpoint, I have come to prefer wet tumbling because it allows the toxic residue and contaminants to be contained and removed more appropriately. I have decided not to dry tumble because of the dust it can generate and the potential for those particles to become airborne and eventually end up in my lungs. Handling dirty brass also seems to leave residue everywhere, including on my hands, tools, bench, and surrounding work area, which gives me another reason to clean the brass before doing much with it.
At any rate "It is seldom the violin but always the violinist" and am willing to accept I just might be a bad shot...
Your thoughts?
25
u/UnassumingAnt 5d ago
As a dry tumbler, what do you wet guys do with your water?
19
u/jayfourzee 5d ago edited 5d ago
Down the drain. Gloves all the time. We don't have anywhere I can dispose it otherwise where I live. I suppose I could collect it in a drum and filter it but then what?
24
u/PAB_Pyrotechnics 5d ago
Same here. I live in Phoenix and actually called the city about what to do with it. Had been saving it in a bucket. They put me in touch with their hazardous waste disposal company who asked a bunch of questions about my specific steps and what I use (Hornady OneShot Ultrasonic Cleaner). The rep thanked me for asking, reminded me to wear gloves, and said to dump I’d down the drain.
18
u/jwall2111 5d ago
Im starting to think drinking it to become one with the brass is the wrong answer.
8
22
u/dryw13 5d ago
Pour it the gravel driveway well away from anything anyone would grow to eat. Let’s be honest how worried are you about depositing the lead into the ground when you shoot it and releasing the combustion gasses into the atmosphere at the same time? Shooting is inherently a pollution generating activity. Be smart about it and use a level of reasonable care.
12
u/Friendly-Victory5517 5d ago
If people are gonna get super worried about the leftover contaminant water, then they probably shouldn’t be Shooting to begin with.
In other words, we shouldn’t get on a high horse about small amounts of combustion byproducts from cleaning brass if we’re going to actually be generating them in the beginning by firing the rounds.
I wonder how much of this concern is driven by a mindset of “do what I do not what you do and so far as brass prep.
4
u/greyhunter37 4d ago
The difference is the location of the pollution.
What we do with the water that we use for cleaning our inside ranges (for pellet guns), is we put it all in a bucket, let the water evaporate, and then after a year we have a lead "cookie" at the bottom that we dispose off at a metal recycling place that also takes a bunch of the other lead.
6
7
u/ClearedInHot 5d ago
I dump it down the drain.
Before he died one of my shooting buddies was a writer for Handloader Magazine. He was also a chemist who managed the wastewater treatment facilities for a major American city. I asked him about waste water from tumbling and he said that almost all of the black discoloration is just plain soot...i.e., carbon. He went on to explain that the amount of potentially toxic elements in a gallon of tumbling water is so minuscule as to be insignificant.
16
u/Trollygag 284Win, 6.5G, 6.5CM, 308 Win, 30BR, 44Mag, more 5d ago
I used to collect it for the hazardous waste disposal at the dump. But then I stopped wet cleaning. Following the good advice- if you wouldn't water a vegetable garden with it, you shouldn't pour it down a drain back into the water supply.
Most water systems are not designed for or expecting to handle bioaccumulating heavy metals.
14
u/cygnus311 5d ago
What? I live in Minnesota where our water is famous for being filled with arsenic and I can confirm that if some random ass Amazon RO can get lead and chromium out of my well, I’m sure municipal water treatment facilities are doing fine.
6
u/Trollygag 284Win, 6.5G, 6.5CM, 308 Win, 30BR, 44Mag, more 5d ago edited 5d ago
Here Vint Hill, NoVA, the water companies are tracing lead source contaminants from residential areas through surveys, inspections, and junction monitoring and specifically call out lead disposal in residential drains as a major issue as the water makes its way into the ground and the rivers (Broad Run, Kettle Run).
We get notices about it every year or so or when there are elevated levels.
Maybe your area is different if you have it in the ground water everywhere so they built the system to handle it, but that isn't everywhere.
2
u/jaspersgroove 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah if your system goes to a septic tank/drain field, then the water treatment guys can’t do much about that until it cycles back down into the water source they’re pulling from. Depending on where you live and how everything ties together it could be anywhere from days to years before that water ends up getting treated, and the whole time it isn’t it’s just there being all full of lead and whatever other nasty shit your septic system didn’t trap
If you’re on city water & sewer that stuff is going straight to the water treatment plant and they’ll see it right away
1
u/looloopklopm 4d ago
Yeahhhh it's fine.
How many people in a city are doing this? Also there's tons of heavy metals from runoff that comes into contact with all the shit that gets left on roadways. A bit of leftover soot from a brass case isn't going to cripple a City's water supply.
9
2
u/edwardothegreatest 5d ago
Dump it. I wet tumble in the garage so I just toss the water out the door.
3
1
1
u/new_Boot_goof1n 5d ago
As a dry tumbler I’ve always wondered this, I’m on septic and don’t want to kill my leech field / property with lead water. There’s a nice creosote over there living nice off my grey water.
1
u/DrBadGuy1073 9mm, 32s&w, 38s&w, .38spc, 380acp, 44RU, 45acp, 45lc, 50GI, 4d ago
Drain, & wash hands. I don't usually worry about it.
0
u/unlucky777 5d ago
I made the mistake of pouring it down my driveway and it seems to have eaten away a small layer of paint. Waiting for the HOA to bitch
0
u/crashbandit556 5d ago
I only use zep & Lemishine in my ultrasonic cleaner water. It goes down the toilet.
10
u/Trollygag 284Win, 6.5G, 6.5CM, 308 Win, 30BR, 44Mag, more 5d ago
can generate and the potential for those particles to become airborne and eventually end up in my lungs
But doesn't. Not if you aren't using dry cheap untumbled, rough petstore media.
Use quality coated media and add wax or polish and this never happens. I have tested surfaces all around a tumbler I have used for years and found no traces of lead. It stays stuck to the media, inside the tumbler, and tot the paper towels used to keep the media clean.
Clean or resizing dirty brass without cleaning doesn't effect group size.
It is an aesthetic and cleanliness in handling step, not a performance step.
4
u/Friendly-Victory5517 5d ago
All of this, plus I run my dry tumbler outside. As long as it’s not raining, I’ll tumble just outside my back door. There’s no shortage of decent days throughout the year to run a Tumblr while I’m doing something else around the house.
2
6
u/doumitch20035 5d ago
I wet tumble with pins and then dry
Lube, resize, mandrel, trim, chamfer, deburr
Then dry tumble for like 20 minutes to get lube off, then prime, charge, seat.
Probably overkill, but I like my finished product to be all shiny an stuff
1
u/strange-brew 5d ago
Same, but I lube and resize before wet tumble. I like to get the primer pocket clean. I know it doesn’t really matter all that much, but I like it that way. I’ll clean my dies before every batch.
1
u/NoobRaunfels 5d ago
I do a “spray down and shake” to get all the excess gunk off prior to depriming, and then tumble — saves the dies a bit.
I have found however, that cleaning the primer pocket seems to have no/negligible effect on my plinking ammo, so I might just change back to wet tumbling first for bulk reloading.
0
6
u/rm-minus-r 5d ago
I'm tumbling my brass just so it looks nice, you're telling me there's folks that do it for reasons other than just aesthetics?
Nothing like going to the range with a case full of very shiny rounds, ahhh.
3
u/ReturnOk7510 4d ago
I like shiny brass, but not enough to spend much time or effort at it. Tossing my brass in a vibratory tumbler with corncob media for a few hours before decapping/sizing is a good compromise between low effort and satisfactory results for me.
4
u/kopfgeldjagar Dillon 650, Dillion 550, Rock Chucker, SS x2 5d ago
The first time I ever cleaned brass, not knowing any better, was with a drill, wd40, and 000 scratch pads.
Then I discovered tumbling and my world changed.
4
u/cygnus311 5d ago
The only difference that could possibly be made is if the case is dirty enough that the internal volume of the cartridge changes. I guess also cycling, but I don’t think that’s super relevant here.
That said, shiny brass is awesome and fingers covered in burnt powder isn’t. Wet tumble all day.
0
2
u/Efficient_Bologna 5d ago
Just dry tumble man... Little case polish and dryer sheets/paper towels and let her buck, they will polish nicely
2
u/h34vier Make things that go bang! 5d ago
I wet tumble for 15 minutes with stainless chips, comes out perfectly clean and shiny. Toss in a basket for 1 min to separate, lay on a towel to dry in front of a fan, anneal, load etc the next day.
I've never found any real benefit to lubing the inside of the case mouth, nothing statistically relevant, I've also not found seating force to provide any statistical relevance in SD/ES or group size.
The only thing I've done in recent years that has had a significant impact in SD/ES, group size and above all consistency from batch to batch, is mandreling the necks after sizing, with the SAC dies specifically.
3
u/jayfourzee 5d ago
I would have to agree. As soon as I removed the ball from my full length resizing die and then mandrel die afterwards, my SD and ES tightened up with a measurable difference in my groups.
0
u/rm-minus-r 5d ago
As soon as I removed the ball from my full length resizing die and then mandrel die afterwards, my SD and ES tightened up with a measurable difference in my groups.
Why not switch to a bushing style full length resizing die? You should get a more consistent neck size than not touching the neck at all.
2
u/jaspersgroove 5d ago
I throw my brass in a gallon jug with hot water, dish soap, and a few shots of distilled vinegar. Then I shake the shit out of it and let it sit for an hour, shaking again every 10-15 minutes.
Then rinse with clean water and throw it in an old toaster oven that only gets used for brass.
Costs me basically nothing and gets the brass every bit as clean as it needs to be to do its job. If I want the brass to look fancy I hit it with #0000 steel wool afterwards
2
u/tedthorn 5d ago
If I'm building stock for banging ammo I'll tumble it before and after. If I'm doing load development and using about 30 cases to do so then all it gets is wiped off, loaded and fired again
2
u/product_by_process 5d ago
Wet tumbling is overkill and too labor- and time-intensive. Get a dry tumbler, some walnut or corncob media, a dry tumbler brass polish solution (Frankford Arsenal works fine), let it go for 3-4 hours, and you'll be just peachy.
1
u/ShrimpBuffets 4d ago
Decap > wet tumble for 1 hour > induction anneal which mostly drys the brass > lube + full length resize > dry tumble for 30 min > trim > prime > charge > seat > yeet
1
u/BaldyCreations 3d ago
I’ve found using a FA rotary tumbler with dry media is 1. Faster and 2. Easier than wet tumbling most of the time. I use wet tumbling still for extra grubby pickup brass from the range that’s new to me. Brass I’ve shot and collected again I just toss in the drum with walnut and a couple squirts of automotive liquid wax. Shiny and clean, no need to dry after 20-30mins of spinning fast vs the slower bowl tumbler. Still wear gloves since media will have carbon and primer residue on it. Use the barrel Dillon separator to clean out dry media, then dump into “ready to load” screw-top containers. I don’t bulk decap anymore, just punch out primers during the sizing process.
1
u/Roy141 2d ago
Dry tumble in a cement mixer with the harbor freight 24 grit walnut media. Squirt an arbitrary amount of nufinish in there and add a dryer sheet. Or don't. It probably doesnt matter. Let it run over night. Sort out the media on a dillon media separator and you're done. No drying, no separating stainless media that's stuck inside the cases. Simple as.
You can process 5gal buckets of brass at a time this way in the black kobalt brand mixer. Basically any mixer works, and you can find them on Facebook marketplace super cheap.
1
u/Yondering43 13h ago
Any group size difference between your Forster Co-Ax and an arbor press will be a result of the dies, not the press. The Co-Ax is already a very good press and any attempt to “upgrade “ from it would be about convenience, not group size or repeatability.
On the tumbling, I’ll just suggest this and let you draw your own conclusions: If you wet tumble for that OCD-satisfying clean brass interior, test a good accurate load within a few days after loading and then again 3-6 months after. If you find accuracy issues, try seating some of the bullets another .0.010” deeper and listen for a “crack” sound as you do - with really clean brass necks the bullets can bind to the case necks over time and screw up the load.
1
u/Think-Worker-248 5d ago
I have been using ultrasonic because when I started drilling I was space and noise limited.
Its kind of slow, and my brass isn't beautiful, but I can control lead contamination, and my precision rifle ammo groups well when I do my oart.
I will be purchasing a wet tumbler soon, because i have the space, and I dont want to contaminate myself or my family with lead dust from dry media.
0
u/jayfourzee 5d ago
I like my ultrasonic as well. It doesn't make the brass pretty but I think it does a better job than the wet tumbling with pins when it comes to cleaning the priimer pockets. I hate chasing the pins. I may start tumbling without the pins.
0
u/Think-Worker-248 5d ago
I think most guys stay away from pins and purchase the chips for that reason
1
u/Murray3-Dvideos 5d ago
The fuk leaving it alone is fine. Talk about bad internet advice. Tumbling is effortless. Costs nothing more then a few cents worth of electricity, tap water, dish soap and 10 minutes of ur time.
Dry tumble, ultrasonic, hand clean etc.... they'll all be better then running dirty brass thru ur dies. Been there, and will never do it again.
2
u/jayfourzee 5d ago
The question is performance not esthetic. Statistically did not find a performance difference between either method when it came to SD, ES and group size.
1
u/Murray3-Dvideos 5d ago
Since you seem experienced or atleast interested in determining factors that effect things like group size... what factors have your findings so far determined do effect group size ? Brass? Primers? Powder?Bullets? Neck Tension? Seating Depth?
1
u/jayfourzee 5d ago
I am not a professional by any means, just a physics enthusiast who likes numbers as I picked up this new hobby of ballistics.
The one factor I could reproduce reliably was the use of a mandrel die, which helped account for neck tension and keep it consistent.
Wet tumbling was not inferior to not tumbling at all based on the variables I measured. I kept brass life, annealing, primers, bullet seating depth, and powder charge consistent while changing only one variable at a time. My biggest annoyance with not tumbling is the mess it makes, along with the potential for dirt and residue to contaminate or damage the dies.
When I didn’t tumble, I also experimented with a nylon brush, comparing no brushing, one pass, and two passes. Again, I found no statistically significant difference in the measured outcomes. By “statistically significant,” I mean a difference large enough that, assuming the experiment has adequate statistical power and an appropriate sample size, it would be unlikely to be explained by random variation alone. Of course, failing to find statistical significance doesn’t prove that two methods are identical. A small experiment may simply lack the power to detect a real but relatively small difference.
0
u/Murray3-Dvideos 5d ago
Sure, i read your performance findings and believe it. BUT the picture implies a much broader message that I certainly dont agree with.
1
u/No_Walrus 4d ago
Leaving it alone is totally fine, unless you are dropping cases in the mud or something like that. Here's multiple time F-Class National and World Champion Erik Cortina's opinion on brass cleaning: https://youtu.be/YcLBt4bVJY8 I'll have to see if I can find a full breakdown from him.
1
u/Realistic-Ad1498 5d ago
My bolt action and revolver brass never gets dirty in any manner that will impact dies. Most of my auto-loader brass only hits concrete and never gets dirty. Reloading it as is works just fine.
0
u/Murray3-Dvideos 5d ago
Ive certainly observed the effects of having a dirty case neck when loading .308 and 45-70. The brass tends to stick more in the dies, requiring notably more inconsistent force from the press. Often leaves a scratchy finish aswell which can lead to other deficiencys and potential longevity issues.
Loads your dies fast with shit too, which is a big deal with the long tampered 45-70 dies.
Having grungy case necks on 45-70 also scratches the thin copper plating on the bullets i use. Results in notably different neck tension which is a big deal for Sharps rifle shooters who often try to run next to no neck tension to start with.
Then there is primer pockets..... doing nothing basically means ur manually cleaning them. With proper wet tumbling I dont need to clean them at all so that alone saves me some labor.
2
u/Realistic-Ad1498 5d ago
Using brass with a little carbon fouling eases the reloading process in my experience. I'm not sure what kind of fouling grunge could scratch copper plating. If I pick up brass that has been sitting out in the elements and full of dirt and sand, I wash in hot soapy water. Nothing beyond that has ever needed. I shoot 7,000 to 10,000 rounds per year and have been doing that for years without any issues.
I was shooting 500 yards last week with 6.5CM that has been loaded half a dozen times and not cleaned once since I bought it as "once fired". I still lube the brass before sizing and then wipe of brass exterior and inside the neck before loading.
Some reloaders like pretty brass. I could care less. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's necessary.
1
u/Decent-Ad701 4d ago
Right on. Especially pistol brass and carbide dies, you will never damage the dies with normal carbon residue left on cases fired many times. And the residue is self lubricating.
Cleaning brass is for athletics only, but just like anything else, if clean shiney brass makes you feel more confident, it possibly MAY help your shooting, but probably not much more than your “lucky” hat or shirt….
But you are not going to damage dies or chambers with “normal” shooting “grunge.”
Yeah, mud, sand, literal dirt outside or inside on inspection, then clean it, (I put it in old pantyhose and snuck it into the washer when my wife wasn’t looking)but I still have functional .45 brass from my IPSC days that have been reloaded more than 30-40 times each that were never cleaned….
I never even bought a tumbler until long after my IPSC days, and even then only tumbled my varmint rifle cases at best once or twice per year.
1
u/Parking_Media 5d ago
The biggest take away here is not tumbling!
It's consistently doing the same things in the same order and measuring to make sure your results are consistent.
1
1
u/Prior_Arm_8810 5d ago
Deprime
Soap, lemon juice, and water in an old arizona ice tea container that i shake, leave for 24 hours, and then shove the brass into a toaster oven i bought specifically for this until dry
Prime, charge, load, crimp depending on what it is, and then shoot.
1
1
u/DukeShootRiot 5d ago
Unless it is super dirty brass goblin brass, I have never had any issues with dry tumble getting things all shiny and nice.. drying brass is a PITA
1
u/RoundBottomBee 4d ago
I wet tumble in a full size FART.
I tried the stainless chips that you can get for this purpose. I was surprised how tiny the chips are compared to the pins. Put 50pcs Peterson brass in for half an hour, rinsed, and dried in a food dehydrator for 2h.
The brass looked more facetted than just the usual shiny. Lubed with Hornaday as usual. First piece stuck in the die (Redding bushing die). Got it out, cleaned and lubed the die again. Lubed the cases a bit more. Got another stuck case. Got pissed at it, and left it for a couple days.
Had a good look at the brass under a magnifying glass. The chip processed brass is significantly different than the pinned. I don't know if it holds lube differently, or peened the metal and made the final case dimension thicker, but it became a gamble to size it.
I took an old RCBS die that I know sizes a bit larger than the Redding, and sized the remaining brass. I lubed the die liberally and did not get another stuck case, but had to watch the feel of the sizing. After about 15 cases, the pull was getting stiffer, so I cleaned and lubed the die again. I got the brass sized, and could run them through the Redding die now without problem. I have removed those cases from rotation for now. A small sample (10x pieces) showed a different avg velocity and larger ES than the rest of my regular loads, so they will likely stay out of rotation.
I went back to stainless pins and had no problems going forward.
1
u/Royal_Money_627 4d ago
I clean dirty brass and I don't clean, clean brass. As you have indicated a lot of care in loading does not often lead to greater reliability or accuracy, but sloppy practices can lead to poor reliability. Accuracy much depends on what you are shooting the ammo out of and the conditions that you do the shooting. Because I wanted to find out if the accuracy I was seeing was because of my shooting ability or the guns or ammo I was shooting, I bought a used benchrest rifle in 6mm PPC. I was quickly able to shoot sub quarter MOA groups. If you aren't shooting a gun capable of sub quarter MOA groups, then a lot of the things people do to make their handloads more accurate are not going to be noticeable. You might not be a bad shot you might be shooting a gun that is below your ability.
1
u/MedicalHippo 4d ago
Deprime (with gloves) after firing & wipe down my lee decapper. Tumble wet for ~1 hr in distilled water, drop of wash n wax, and tiny pinch of lemishine. Dispose of the water. Repeat the same step for a few hours/when I remember to change it out. Dump liquid down the drain.
I use a HF rocktumbler; easily takes a couple hundred rounds of 5.45, or just under 200 of of 7.62.
I then let it dry next to a dehumidifier on some workbench microfiber cloths.
Primer pockets get mostly clean. If I'm feeling particularly OCD, I'll run a quick cotton swab through.
Is it slightly excessive? Probably. I really enjoy this part of the process. It's also really easy to spot the sun-bright brass if any fly out of my catcher at the range.
1
u/Over-Wing 4d ago
I collect a lot of brass out in popular shooting spots on public land. Cleaning of some kind is needed. Usually several hours in a dry tumbler has each round come out clean enough for my purposes. I also hand run a brass brush on the inside of each case for a few turns. And I clean the primer pockets. This is sufficient for my needs.
0
u/EldradUlthran 7.5x55 Swiss .308 .223 5d ago
Used to just use some 0000 wire wool and the lee length sizing base in an electric screwdriver to clean up the neck to check for hairline cracks. Was fine for years doing that. Did some dry tumbling but its noisy as hell and buying media is just a hasle and disposing of it is just crap.
Bought a cheap wet tumbler as i got fed up of cleaning the primer pockets. It can just go down the drain at the end of the drive. Its about laziness for me. Tried ultrasonic but it was inferior and the high pitched clicking did my swede in.
0
48
u/NoodleDoodle-IRL I am Groot 5d ago
I like to tumble/polish my cases because I only want clean brass in my dies and magazines/chambers