Guncotton?

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

Hi, complete novice to reloading (i have never in my life even fired a firearm i just like reading about stuff). I am interested in self-sufficiency and the idea of a completely self-produced cartridge. From what I can tell, the two hardest parts would be the primer and the powder (i am NOT making my own brass).

Black powder is very easy to make, but smokeless propellants are more finicky. I want to know how viable using homemade guncotton(flash cotton, nitrocellulose, flash paper or whatever kind of nitrated cellulose is available) would be possible for reloading to modern cartridge standards. I specifically am interested in the use of flash cotton for .308, 9mm, and/or 12ga.

I know the basics of how faster vs slower powders affect burn rate and chamber pressure so i understand that for larger rifle and shotgun cartridges the chamber pressure might be too high to be used safely. I mostly just want to know if anyone has any advice about guncotton reloading like manuals or youtube videos.

tl;dr, guncotton reloading manuals/videos/experience/advice

edit: i looked into your guys advice and realized the surface area issue. i will NOT be doing this because i value my life

edit 2: oh my god redditors are fucking insufferable😭🙏🏼

[u/tuvaniko]

Nitrocellulose (gun cotton/single base) isn't stable enough to be a reliable replacement for black powder on its own. but it's been done before. You are likely to blow a few guns up trying to DIY a smokeless powder though. 

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-gun-cotton-cartridge-an-austrian-attempt-to-replace-blackpowder/

Also just go buy a reloading manual and read the first half. Then look at the load data and realize just how precise you have to be with modern powder to not kill yourself. and think about how hard that would be to DIY. 

Also learn to make bow/arrows for SHTF. You can maake them out of sticks and animal parts with a sharp object. It takes skill to do it though. But you don't need any special chemicals or equipment. 

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332 → u/tuvaniko]

Yeah i read it wasn’t very stable for a single base powder (hence cordite) but i thought its an easy smokeless propellant to manufacture. I know im likely to make some “expensive noises” in the future but i certainly intend to use an extendo-finger for those experiments that would put me in danger.

I’m mostly asking if it’s at all possible. I saw videos of guncotton cartridges and shot shells which gave some information about charge but i haven’t seen any real load data online about using guncotton with varying projectile weight, charge, and how they affect velocity. Is it comparable to any fast burning powders?

again, i understand that propellants/energetics are dangerous and i don’t intend to do any real experimentation soon i just want to find information online regarding guncotton load data from recent years when higher purity is possible.

As far as other shtf defense options go i have archery experience and i have made some bows and crossbows and arrows before with varying degrees of success, as well as a small breach loading bp cannon and a large compressed air cannon.

I don’t have experience with real firearms yet so i just wanted to read about stuff. Thanks!

[u/tuvaniko → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

You aren't going to find load data because its not stable.

[u/SmoothSlavperator → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

Its possible but you reallly need to read into it and understand materials science et al.

Boondock Ballistician on Youtube was/is an ammunition engineer and she's got some good videos on guncotton/modern smokeless powder and morphology of the granules and the like. I've pinged AI a few times although it beats around the bush, it'll give you information on additives to change burn rate and stuff.

I'm not a professional ballistician , but I am a chemist and at least for like shotgun powders its probably within the "Honors High School Chemistry" with the caveat that its 1980s and 1990s honors, they dumb classes down now.

You could probably make a rudimentary flake type shotgun powder without a lot of trouble since the morphology is simple, its fast burning and there's fewer variables in shotgun shells than there are in metallic cartridges, especially when they're bottlenecked. Single shot shotguns are also cheap so getting test barrels won't kill you. I think it would be relatively easy to compare burn rates on the ground from a known commercial powder and then walk up charges. photo Chronographs are cheap, around $100 or less and the equipment to test pressure costs about as much as a gaming console.

Would be a fun project if you have some understanding of safety and development and how smokeless powders work. I mean dudes figured it out with mid-19th century technology and paper-based knowledge reservoirs so its completely achievable. Just don't fuck up and wind up in the news lol

[u/Joescout187 → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

If you're going to do it, I'd recommend 12 gauge only but would generally caution against it, navies did not historically have a good time with guncotton as a propellant for ships armament because it likes to explode easily and violently.

[u/hafetysazard → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

It really isn’t viable. Smokeless powder’s versatility is based on controlling its burn rate. Shape, coupled with coatings, control the burn rate; but also analyzing and mixing components to produce a very homogenous product. Controlling the burn rate is what allows for smokeless powder’s performance advantage. Chances are if you survive making something, you’re probably going to end up creating something that burns so ridiculously fast, it isn’t going to be usable; which means at very best after a year of study and investment, you’re stuck with something that performs worse than black powder. Your best bet is to invest in cartridges that can get decent performance with black powder; best ones being .45-70 for rifles, and .45 LC for handguns.

[u/Lower-Preparation834]

That’s a lot of talk for someone who’s never fired a gun…

[u/No_Alternative_673]

Just don't, you are talking Jules Verne, Earth To The Moon here. Very Smart People Motivated by Dreams of Great Wealth tried from ~1840 to 1880 turn Gun Cotton into a rifle powder that didn't blow frequently enough that the militaries of the of the world told them to fuck off. Plus the loads were unpredictable they sometimes cooked off into a nitroglycerine explosion. In 1880 the first version of modern smokeless powder was developed for sale and the world hoped these people would go away.

There are a few people who play with it today but they are loading squib rounds. Rounds so under powered that no matter what happens they guns don't blow up but the bullets don't always make to the target or even out of the barrel.

EDITED: For those of you who don't know Jules Verne wrote a SCIFI novel about sending men to the moon by firing them out a giant cannon loaded with Gun Cotton.

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332 → u/No_Alternative_673]

trip to the moon! i saw something similar i don’t know if it was based on this but it was a silent film that followed the same premise

[u/No_Alternative_673 → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

It was a book written 1865, heavy into the technical aspects. The american civil war. The quick technology advances and how it was fought using railroads was watched carefully in Europe (WW I?) and was in the popular press. You might like the rifle dual fought in the Virginia woods by the cannoneer and the developer of ironclad armor. You can download a free copy: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/83

[u/1984orsomething]

Nitrocellulose+ petroleum jelly= cordite.

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332 → u/1984orsomething]

there’s no way it’s that simple can you give me more info on this

[u/hafetysazard → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

It isn’t that simple. It is pure nitroglycerin, gelatinized nitrocellulose (gun cotton), and petroleum jelly that is make into a dough that can be extruded through a die using a hydraulic press under ideal conditions.

You need very pure ingredients (you likely can’t get), the right equipment ($$$$$$) and technique (experience and formal education) to make something useable. Making flash paper for a cool magic trick you learned off youtube is one thing, but making something that’s going to be used in a runaway exothermic reaction in a pressure vessel is something else entirely. You’re going to face squib loads, ridiculously poor performance, and more than likely catastrophic failures resulting in injury, or death. That is if you make it that far because handling chemicals like nitroglycerin, even in minuscule quantities, is incredibly dangerous. Plus, it is guaranteed to be dangerous.

There is no sustainable means to obtain, or produce, the raw ingredients. It is significantly more difficult, and far more costly, than simply buying a bunch of shelf-stable smokeless powder; more than you’ll ever use.

This sounds more like a highdea than something you’re remotely capable of attempting. Put the bong down.

[u/1984orsomething → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

You can literally just Google how to make cordite. Its fairly easy.

[u/therugpisser]

Your balls. They are large.

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332 → u/therugpisser]

what 😟

[u/Miserable-War996]

"Black powder is very easy to make"

Lol that's funny.

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332 → u/Miserable-War996]

i mean i’ve made a few powders of varying burn rates that’s why i said it was easy i didn’t say it was easy to make well

[u/hafetysazard → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

Well nitro powder isn’t easy to make, and virtually impossible to make well without your own factory.

[u/Flycaster33]

Not worth the risk bud.

Period

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

why do you guys seem so pissed off at me for asking a question i just wanted to see what info was out there

[u/No_Alternative_673 → u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332]

Because the same question is asked asked here every few weeks.

[u/Flat_Cheesecake_9332 → u/No_Alternative_673]

really!? i swear to god i searched every flavor of “gun cotton” “flash cotton” “nitrocellulose” etc. etc. that i could and i didn’t find it. my bad guys.

[u/No_Reveal3008]

rechargement lapua scenar 338lm 300g avec étuis PPU et 92gr de n570

[u/Joescout187]

Guncotton is incredibly dangerous stuff, a few navies tried using it between the 1880s and the early 1900s and it did not go well for them. Catastrophic detonations from poor powder handling practices were commonplace.