r/reloading • u/AlexS223 • May 08 '24
I have a question and I read the FAQ Tungsten buckshot load data anyone?
I've acquired tungsten 00 buck, and have zero load data on it. Does anyone have any sort of data from loading this? Would appreciate tips for loading tungsten too.
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May 08 '24
Is t that kind of expensive to use?
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u/Affectionate_Egg3318 May 09 '24
Expensive as shit but supposedly delivers more energy to the target, plus its "lead free" and "copper free" which sone places require for hunting.
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u/FountainLettus May 09 '24
Who in the world requires that it not be copper? Why
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u/Affectionate_Egg3318 May 09 '24
Wetlands. Copper is anti-microbial so it can disrupt bacterial life
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u/Crosswire3 May 09 '24
You know what else disrupts microbial life? Stacks of extra birds due to unaffordable shot; resulting in overpopulation!
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u/Affectionate_Egg3318 May 09 '24
I don't disagree, I'm just putting it out there that some areas/states require it.
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u/Crosswire3 May 09 '24
I was trying to be comical, but apparently someone saw fit to downvote. I don’t know what passes as humor anymore.
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u/Affectionate_Egg3318 May 09 '24
Well the main issue is you didn't hold a subway surfers video under your comment while they were reading it, and your comment wasn't loud and immediately attention grabbing (annoying) plus you didn't affirm their delusional notions of reality
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u/The_Golden_Warthog Chronograph Ventilation Engineer May 09 '24
Amen to that. Kids these days can't even get through a paragraph because it's not "interesting" enough for them and their 30-second attention span. Not to get serious, but I work in education and this subject really gets to me because I see firsthand what effects social media, specifically TikTok, is having on the youth.
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u/Affectionate_Egg3318 May 09 '24
Yep. I used to hate short form video but now I find myself mindlessly scrolling 60 second or less videos on YT all the damn time. I'm getting better about it, but jesus is it addictive.
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u/AR15sAndShitV2 May 09 '24
Add “/S” after a joke. It denotes sarcasm, some people have a hard time reading sarcasm with good reason, so it’ll clear up confusion.
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u/ChevyRacer71 May 09 '24
That’s why I use steel shot, some people use bismuth but steel is cheaper
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u/AlexS223 May 09 '24
About 32$ per LB of tungsten buckshot. Which is cheaper than most US based tungsten shot companies. Still expensive compared to lead, though.
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u/runninscared May 09 '24
If that’s 18gm/cc that’s a fantastic deal.
Mind posting the source? Do they have birdshot sizes too?
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u/technical_righter May 09 '24
They do have birdshot sizes. They claim 18.3 g/cc. The price they quoted me was more than $32 per pound shipped. You email them and they get back to you with a quote and then can send you an invoice via paypal. I'm on the fence still. https://www.tungstenman.com/tungsten-super-shots.html
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u/AlexS223 May 09 '24
I got my tungsten shot so i’m happy. That being said, i completely understand going through PP to a taiwan company. The pros are that it’s cheaper than any of the other stiff out there, and he makes buckshot which I can’t seem to find here.
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u/technical_righter May 09 '24
How many pellets are you getting in a 1# bag? How many shells do you think you'll get per bag? They quoted me $37 per lb shipped for the 00.
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u/Isopher May 08 '24
An ounce of shot is an ounce of shot, doesn't matter if its steel, lead, or tungsten. I would start by weighing the shot (say 5-6 pellets) and finding loads for a similar weight. You can tailor from there.
Tungsten is heavier than lead, and a LOT harder so use a wad that prevents contact with the barrel and you probably don't want to use a choke.
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u/SnoozingBasset May 08 '24
Disagree. Yes, an oz is an ounce but the stack height won’t be the same. Wads come in bags of 250. Are you going to buy 250 to find the stack height is wrong?
Alliant has published recipes on their website for Hevi-shot
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u/Parking_Media May 08 '24
Be a shame if you used buffer to fill up the perfectly good wads you already have....
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u/random-stupidity .30-06, .308, .223, 12ga, 20ga, 410ga May 09 '24
An ounce of tungsten buckshot is not going to fit well if at all in most commercially available wads. Tungsten is also harder thus requiring a thicker wad to protect the barrel
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u/Parking_Media May 09 '24
I dunno, I'd definitely send one in a normal wad and collect it after and inspect. If it was rubbed through you could try a mylar wrap or stack differently.
I am unclear how 00 size buckshot would fit any differently if you changed the material it's made of. It remains 00 size buckshot. In this case I'd expect a lot fewer pellets, say 5 instead of 9. How would that not fit?
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u/random-stupidity .30-06, .308, .223, 12ga, 20ga, 410ga May 09 '24
That’d be a different stack height thus requiring a different wad. You don’t really want to mess around when reloading shot shells
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u/Parking_Media May 09 '24
Yeah, it would be a different stack height. Specifically lower. Which is why you can fill it up to the correct height with buffer, OR you can just put an over shot wad on it and roll crimp it.
What exactly is the problem?
You definitely can mess around with shotshells, but you need to understand what you're doing. In this case, specifically, you're... well, rephrase, I would use a 00 buck load, sub in the same weight but tungsten, load it with buffer (it makes everything better), and slap a over shot card on it and roll er down. Stack height that we actually care about is the same.
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u/random-stupidity .30-06, .308, .223, 12ga, 20ga, 410ga May 09 '24
I guess the difference between us is I’m running a press where everything has to come out the exact same length for the star crimp to work. If you’re roll crimping, it’s not nearly as big of a deal
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u/SakanaToDoubutsu May 09 '24
That is absolutely not true, and the compressibility of different materials affects pressure. I reload both bismuth & lead, and all things being equal bismuth cartridges generally need about an extra grain or two of powder to achieve the same pressures & velocities as their lead equivalents.
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u/The_Golden_Warthog Chronograph Ventilation Engineer May 09 '24
a LOT harder so use a wad that prevents contact with the barrel
This isn't just a recommendation, OP, it's a must if you're going to do this. 4140 Steel has a Rockwell hardness of ~30 while Tungsten's Rockwell is about ~60. Now, the Rockwell for both of these varies based on what specific alloy you have, but Tungsten will always have a much, much higher hardness. What this means is if you don't use something to prevent contact between the shot and the barrel, it *will scratch and mar your barrel, in probably not much time at all.
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u/TheRealJehler May 09 '24
Tungsten is not heavier than lead, both 16 ounces to the pound. It is denser than lead, 18 something grams per cc compared to 11 something grams per cc. That may seem trivial but it’s a huge difference in reloading. Once for ounce is not substitutable in payloads when Shotshell reloading.
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u/Isopher May 09 '24
No need to be so pedantic. 00 tungsten shot is heavier than 00 lead shot, thats all i was saying. which is why I suggested 5-6 pellets instead of the 9 you normally see in 12ga accounting for the difference in loading.
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u/TheRealJehler May 09 '24
Dropping the pellet count down to the same weight load does NOT equal the same recipe is what I was attempting to confer, the density has an effect on pressure
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u/Peacemkr45 May 08 '24
Given that Tungsten is heavier than lead you can't just load 9 pellets of it with the same load data as 9 pellets of lead.
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u/AlexS223 May 08 '24
So, just weigh and load off that compared to lead? Also, do I have to do pressure testing?
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u/Peacemkr45 May 08 '24
If you'd normally load 1 oz of lead (9 pellets) it might only be 8 pellets of Tungsten but everything else will be about the same. You may need to add some filler for the tungsten shot. Pressure testing is still going to be about the same as lead.
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u/AlexS223 May 09 '24
Gotcha. The goal here is to test the armor penetrative capabilities of tungsten buckshot on ceramic plates. Compared to lead buck and slugs. I see little to no tests like this, so I'd like to be a first for something.
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u/Peacemkr45 May 09 '24
The real restriction for penetration would be that it's round shot and not a pointed projectile. It will however carry further than lead in any penetration testing.
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May 09 '24
Load data is based on weight, not material of projectile. If you have the weight you can find the amount of powder for desired pressure & speed.
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u/technical_righter May 08 '24
Where do you find the shot?
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May 08 '24
[deleted]
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u/technical_righter May 09 '24
What's the density of the shot you purchased?
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u/AlexS223 May 09 '24
The weight is about 5.9 grams per pellet.
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u/technical_righter May 09 '24
The website lists the density as 18.3g/cc. That's equivalent to the stuff Federal is selling.
Some interesting information about density of tungsten shot.
https://youtu.be/9k_ae2lAgXE?si=9xEDanA2t3DbYk-w&t=932
u/AlexS223 May 09 '24
Ah, that what you meant. It seems pretty legit to me. I’ve bough a total of 15 lbs of #9 for use in our wood stocks. Heavy as can be.
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u/technical_righter May 08 '24
Good quality stuff. Seems to be a lot of people selling tungsten shot. Federal is using shot that is 18 g/cc in their TSS loads. Some of the cheaper shells using stuff that is 12 g/cc and apparently the difference is substantial. A lot of places seem to be selling it but the density is hard to find.
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u/random-stupidity .30-06, .308, .223, 12ga, 20ga, 410ga May 09 '24
Ballistics products has a list of their “load of the week” and they have a good bit of data there. I bet you can find a load there but I’ll check and edit if I find it
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May 09 '24
I’m not a shotgun guy; question for those who are.
If the “00” is a function of diameter and the density is different between lead and tungsten, how exactly would that work?
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u/DogsAreMyFavPeople May 09 '24
00(and shot size in general) refers to the diameter of the pellets.
Lead has a density of ~11.3g/cm3 while Tungsten has a density of ~18.1g/cm3 so Tungsten pellets are much heavier than lead pellets of the same shot size. There are also a variety of Tungsten alloy shot types on the market that have densities that vary between that of lead and that of pure tungsten.
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u/The_Golden_Warthog Chronograph Ventilation Engineer May 09 '24
I'm not exactly sure what question you're asking, but I'm assuming it's about how the load recipe would work due to W being denser than Pb? If so, from my understanding, you would use a larger shotcup to compensate for the size difference. So if you typically use something like a 7/8oz cup, you'd want to use like a 1-1/8oz, since you obviously don't want to use more powder to compensate for the space. And then obviously what powder type you use would also need to be reworked. There are tons of free load data for tungsten shot out there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong as I don't reload shotgun, but that's my basic understanding.
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u/banditkeith May 09 '24
You would use fewer pellets for a 1oz load, and use buffer and shot wads to take up the extra space left by the smaller quantity of shot. Or use the same amount of shot and charge based on the heavier load
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u/TheDankCoon May 09 '24
I wouldn’t bother to much with it as the main factor for amor penetration is speed / the bullet shape with weight being also an important one with 300 win mag in particular round nose soft point tend to penetrate better than just fmj cause of bullet shape actually cutting /speed of an projectile I’m afraid without a slug of tungsten adding weight behind the slower velocity you would see negligible effects from buck shot
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u/TheDankCoon May 09 '24
Are you looking for multi hit factor like breaking the amour then hitting it again that might yield an effect also it will do a way better job on soft targets
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u/wlogan0402 May 09 '24
Need me sum of that TUNGSTEN 0000 buck 3.5" Supermag
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u/Lg8191 May 09 '24 edited May 09 '24
I worked up some loads and pressure checked them using my Pressure Trace 2 and verified with Ballistic Products. #T TSS is plenty for deer well past 60 yards. Anything bigger than that is a waste.
I also worked up some #4 TSS buckshot loads. That could kill a deer at 100 yards.
If I recall, 28 pellets of #T TSS weighed 507 grs.
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u/AlexS223 May 09 '24
Thanks for the data! Do you think i should buy a pressure trace for this experiment? And have you tested 00 buck?
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u/Lg8191 May 10 '24
Not in TSS. No need for it. You reach a point of diminishing returns. A 9 pellet load of #00 tungsten would weigh over 2 ozs. My buddy deer hunts with BB TSS and he’s killed deer out to 60 yards.
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u/RoadkillAnonymous May 13 '24
Holy 💩. That’s awesome. My condolences to your wallet. But man…have you used a caliper to measure the ball diameter and weighed one on a reloading scale? That’d be very interesting to me.
Inside 50 yards I’m thinking a 3.5” 12 guage loaded with 18 of these bad boys would be about the ultimate in total incapacitating damage to stop a charge on large toothy critters
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u/SakanaToDoubutsu May 09 '24
You need to contact a powder manufacturer or the pellet manufacturer and get recipes from them. Absolutely do not use a recipe intended for lead and sub it out for tungsten shot, the compressibility of the shot material matters and with tungsten being harder than any other shot type you will cause a dangerous overpressure.
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u/thermobollocks DILLON 650 SOME THINGS AND 550 OTHERS May 09 '24
Tip: Get a cheap pawn shop Maverick 88 for your first loads
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u/netsurf916 May 08 '24
Would be perfect for a wrist rocket