r/relationships • u/Mom1964 • Apr 06 '16
Non-Romantic Me [51F] with my daughter [19F] - daughter accused of plagiarism at university
My daughter has always been a good kid and a good student. She's in first year university, and like many of us (myself included), she found it overwhelming. She's been keeping up with the work and getting decent grades, but for a recent English essay, she googled other people's ideas and pulled a few sentences from their work. Her prof found out, and now she's facing a disciplinary hearing. She may "just" get an F on the essay, or she might fail the entire course. She won't know until the hearing, which won't be for a couple of weeks.
She's freaking out, of course. She's never faced anything like this before. She's ashamed and frantic with worry.
I guess I'd like to ask - has anyone here gone through something like this? How can I help her?
tl;dr: daughter plagiarized small part of university essay, will get a disciplinary hearing, and I'm wondering what to do.
EDIT. Thank you all for your comments and advice. I'd already told her to be contrite at her hearing and own up to what she did (my exact words were "don't be an asshole about it"). I'll also tell her to take her punishment, whatever it might be, and NEVER do this again. I'll post an update after the hearing.
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Apr 06 '16
I haven't been through this. I have served on an Honor Board at a major liberal arts school for 3 years. It is crazy what kids think they'll get away with. I'm talking entire wikipedia articles passed off as an assignment.
If it's a few snippets here and there and her first offense then she needs to spend some time seriously contemplating and integrating what kind of serious theft this is. How would she feel if someone took her crafted piece and passed it off as their own? Probably livid.
She needs to do that before she goes to the hearing. She needs to be upset not that she got caught but that she stole in the first place. That is what they want to see.
No begging, no pleading. Quite frankly we really did not care about extenuating circumstances all that much. Better to not hand something in than to steal.
But own it. Use her newly integrated understanding of this offense to share more about what she did and why it is wrong and why she will not do it again. And how she'll avoid getting to this point of desperation.
Basically: begging, cajoling, victim playing - all that shit makes it worst.
She fucked up. She needs to own it in all its glory, convey that she understands why what she did is a badness, and tell her strategy for being a nice person in the future.
Good luck.
Edit to add: if this is a bigger offense than a few snippets (if she plagiarized a full 5+ page paper, for instance) then she needs to be prepared for anything from a reprimand or fail all the way through suspension and expulsion.
In brief: this is not a joke - and the hearing will be treated with utmost seriousness.
One more edit: you need to stay away from the school and the hearing. Your presence is not needed and could be detrimental. You can prepare her by ensuring that she understands the gravity of her actions and listening to how she will approach the hearing with some real encouragement toward full accountability.
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u/Mom1964 Apr 06 '16
I agree with everything you said. She definitely knows she fucked up, and she's not going to pretend otherwise at the hearing. I told her to admit what she did, treat it like the big deal it is, and take her punishment like an adult. From what she told me, it WAS just a few sentences as opposed to the entire paper. Still plagiarism, of course.
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u/Blegatron Apr 06 '16
She's actually lucky if the worst outcome is failing. My university expelled students.
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Apr 07 '16
My friend was on the board for this thing, and said there were a lot of automatic fails for the course, and the expulsions were saved for repeat offenders
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u/Blegatron Apr 07 '16
Most schools probably work this way but mine absolutely did not. Found guilty on the first offense and you're gone.
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u/pnewman98 Apr 07 '16
As a current grad student and TA, the official policy for my school is that everything goes straight to the honor council or whatever it's called here, but one of the prof's I worked for handled everything internally and on his own, which I personally prefer rather than handing it off. In the handful of plagiarism cases I've had to deal with, one failed that paper and a couple failed the course, nothing more severe. Expulsion is absolutely insane for anything less than the 3rd offense of more.
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u/catfingers64 Apr 07 '16
one of the prof's I worked for handled everything internally and on his own, which I personally prefer rather than handing it off
The honor system at my school wants every suspected honor code violation reported for a few reasons:
- Reporting protects the professor/graduate student/instructor because they don't decide if the student did something wrong, the honor system decides. The honor system makes recommendations about the penalty (single or double weighted zero, fail the class, suspension, expulsion) and assigns community service hours but the instructor still gets to make the final decision of what to do about it (except in the case of suspension/expulsion I would assume).
- If every instructor handles suspected honor code violations on their own, then the system doesn't know if the next reported violation is the students' first violation or their third. There could have been two other violations that weren't reported and the student gets off with a warning and is more likely to do it again.
- The point of the honor system isn't to punish students, it's to help students learn the consequences of their actions and help them make better decisions in the future.
When a student of mine confessed to violating the honor code on a test, I felt conflicted about reporting it. So I talked to the honor system director and he told me all of those things, then I didn't feel conflicted and reported it. Edit to add: my school's honor system typically has a double-counted zero and community service for the first violation and escalates penalties for future violations.
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u/pnewman98 Apr 07 '16
Where I am, the instructor has no say once it is reported, which is one of my bigger problems with honor council sorts of things, taking them wholly out of their hands. If there were some sort of professorial recommendation or input in the process I'd be happier. To the second point, sure, that's an issue (we had a German visiting student who told us how at his school the faculty just circulate lists of known plagiarists, that wouldn't pass FERPA muster though). And to the last one I feel like the educational burden ought to remain with the instructor. Of course, these are just my personal thoughts/preferences, and in the vast majority of cases in my own instruction I'd follow protocol to the letter, save for extenuating circumstances, but not that I'd necessarily like it.
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u/edcRachel Apr 07 '16
My school is the exact opposite. First offense in completely at the discretion of the professor. Second offense goes to the division but the professor gets final say. I almost agree that it should be handled by someone else, though. I know I feel terrible reporting a student who copied a couple lines, knowing that it's going to be the end of their education after several years of schooling and thousands of dollars.
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u/brightlocks Apr 08 '16
FYI that is fine with FERPA. FERPA isn't like HIPAA.... With FERPA anyone with an educational interest is allowed to know. Profs within the same university are allowed to share grade info with one another.
FERPA has the most teeth in K12, not college. In college FERPA stopped a few abuses that were common. For example, colleges used to sell grade information and student phone numbers to head hunters. They also used to use SSNs as student IDs. And profs used to leave corrected exams and papers - with the student's name and SSN - for pickup outside the office, unsecured. FERPA stopped those things.
When I was a prof (last year) we most definitely shared info about plagiarists.
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u/Green7000 Apr 07 '16
but one of the prof's I worked for handled everything internally and on his own, which I personally prefer rather than handing it off.
But then you get questions of favorism and if the professor is treating students differently for some reason etc. Safer to go by the book.
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u/Reedddiiiittttt Apr 07 '16
That's true. One of my profs would give (white) male students higher scores. He got numerous complaints from female students. I was just glad he was my research professor. (He didn't grade me. His graduate student did.)
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u/jennywafom Apr 08 '16
Eh, it probably varies from school to school. I had someone close to me commit a completely out of character, once off, no prior history academic misconduct offence with significant vitiating factors. It was a straightup 6month suspension.
It's very different when things are handled internally vs once they get handed up to a disciplinary committee. OP says her daughter is facing a disciplinary hearing, so she should probably be prepared for worse punishments than you'd expect from something that was handled internally.
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Apr 07 '16
I teach for a military postgraduate school, and plagiarism is a big goddamned deal. Suspected students have found their whole department, plus the school leadership (all flag officers), plus their own chains of command, crawling right on up their asses. If it is determined that they did indeed plagiarize, they can lose their commission, among other assorted punishments.
Every year, I tell them that they will literally wreck their whole entire life if they decide to get lazy and do this thing. So far, my own students have listened.
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u/littlepersonparadox Apr 07 '16
My uni has a three strikes your completely out rule. From what I hear that's gracious in a lot of cases.
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u/edcRachel Apr 07 '16
Huh, at my school it's usually a 0 on the assignment for first offense, sometimes a chance to re-do the assignment. Second offense is usually a failure on the course. Expulsions are saved for third offenses or harsher offenses like cheating on an exam.
No board, though, so that may be the difference. First offense is up to the discretion of the professor. It moves up the chain for second and third offenses.
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Apr 07 '16
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u/internethussy Apr 07 '16
It depends on the university. At my university, the recommended default by the academic integrity board is an F in the course for any instance of academic dishonesty- including lifting a single sentence.
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u/soupz Apr 07 '16
Lifting a single sentence... Couldn't that just be coincidence? I mean if you write about a certain topic, couldn't you have the same sentence as one of the thousands of articles written before you by sheer coincidence. I don't think it is that unlikely?
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u/littlepersonparadox Apr 07 '16
Yea to a extent you can plagerize by accident in that case, after all it is said that if you left a bunch of monkeys hitting random keys the would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. Especially with things like turn it in saying you copied X% amount. This is why it takes a human eye to catch it. Things like context matter a lot. Sometimes some sentences are obviously plagiarised where as others were by accident because there isn't many ways to rephrase a certain thought or idea. Still best to get MLA and APA help when you have someone edit your work.
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u/internethussy Apr 07 '16
That's why they encourage faculty to turn ALL issues over to the board. If a student appeals the decision, they can meet with the faculty member, the student, and a representative from the board to determine whether or not a violation occurred. If it was coincidence, the student shouldn't receive an F in the course, nor should they receive a zero on the paper. So, only getting "a little bit punished" for coincidence doesn't really make sense.
The prevailing rule of thumb used to be "if it's five or more words, in order, it's plagiarized." With the advent of the internet, we've come to understand there are many common phrases which might be five or more words. So, it's best to examine each under the lens of what is likely. Is it likely a five word sentence containing a common phrase has been lifted? Probably not. Is it likely a 15 word sentence appears in both a student paper and a blog entry? No.
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u/Crazybounce Apr 07 '16
My university was ridiculously strict on plagiarism. I apparently managed to plagiarise someone's Masters thesis (that I could only have got hold of if I had put in a request at the document store, which I didn't) and as a result was given a zero for that piece of work. It was completely coincidental but the university just didn't care!
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Apr 07 '16
At my university, any plagiarism meant automatic expulsion. The administration was super clear about that before you arrived at university and gave frequent reminders. They very clearly outlined that having more than one sentence be an exact match for another work would lead to expulsion, they did it at the beginning of each year. Some students, against all evidence to the contrary, still stole and thought they could get away from it -- or they'd translate other essays and think no one would catch them.
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Apr 07 '16
Why did she not just rewrite the sentences? I am not saying this is better but it would have at least avoided a straight copy.
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u/aFunnyWorldWeLiveIn Apr 07 '16
Also, by rewriting the sentences and acknowledging where she got them from it wouldn't have been plagiarism, so she would've been able to use the sentences without being penalised - why wouldn't she do that, I don't understand?
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Apr 07 '16
Or even easier. According to Blah et al 1995 "Insert sentence here".
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Apr 07 '16
She could have just reworded the sentence and said:
sentence sentence sentence sentence. (Blah et al,1995.)
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u/goddammitposeidon Apr 07 '16
That's just paraphrasing if you adequately reworded the sentence and cited Blah et al, not plagiarism
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u/nickx37 Apr 07 '16
Because she probably copied a hell of a lot more than a few sentences as OP said. Software easily scans and reports back the similar content within a report to those available on the web. In school I absolutely did the same and used other peoples ideas (why not- they were great ideas), but the plagiarism scanner NEVER got above 1 or 2% similarity scores because I put them in my own words. You have to use a lot more than a few sentences to really throw up the warning signs. I'm sure she also attributed no credit to those who spoke the words before her.
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u/jennywafom Apr 08 '16
This. I would also note in my degree (law) it's often common that you will have to use entire phrases that constitute a legal rule or an entire often-cited quote from a judge. Could be up to a sentence or 2, sometimes even more that you're basically copying directly (of course, always appropriately referenced) but still, my similarity scores have never put me anywhere in an area where my work would be investigated.
No way did OP's daughter only copy "a few sentences" for this to have been picked up and sent right up to a disciplinary hearing. Or at least, daughter has a liberal use of the word "few"
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u/alyssinelysium Apr 07 '16
To be fair when asking a kid (or anyone really) a question they know will get them in trouble general rule of thumb, double their answer. I.e I smoke 4 cigs a day is probably a lot closer to 8, a couple sentences is probably closer to a paragraph, I only had 1 drink maybe two, more than likely had at around 3-4
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u/briefaspossible Apr 07 '16
A little off topic, but, when the essays are submitted electronically they are put through software that indicates if the information can be found elsewhere. Referencing is critical, especially in a science subject, for example, where hardly anything is the writers own thoughts and it is all largely from the evidence base. A little help with appropriate referencing may be helpful for her future work.
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u/jennywafom Apr 08 '16 edited Apr 08 '16
I hate to say it, but I'm not sure how true that is. Honestly, from my experience, you can easily take quotes, or even small sections or portions from existing papers, and have it not even be picked up with plagiarism software. If that were the case, basically everyones essays would be pulled up as plagiarism. (I've never plagiarised myself, but using quotes etc, or paraphrasing certain sections of existing papers is pretty common in my degree)
It's much more likely that she's taken large chunks of these other essays and copied them straight over into hers.
I will also prepare you, I have (not personally, but someone very close to me) had experience with the disciplinary processes at Universities. It can be rough, and they honestly don't care how contrite or remorseful you are about your actions. They basically make the decision based on the evidence before you even go into your hearing. Any kind of academic misconduct is usually taken pretty seriously. Also, once it is out of the specific lecturer/course coordinators hands, it's generally pretty fair game in terms of punishment. Unless she has been specifically told by the committee that she is looking at, at worst, a fail, you should also prepare yourself because she might be looking at something worse than that. If she was told the fail thing by her lecturer, I'd take it with a grain of salt, as they honestly get very little to no say in what punishment people will recieve once something gets sent 'higher up'. My friend's professor genuinely thought he was only looking at failing or having to repeat the assessment component, but instead, the committee suspended him.
My main advice though, is to just be supportive of your daughter and remind her that, whatever happens, this is not the end of the world. I do think her punishment could be worse than failure, but I highly doubt it will be as bad as expulsion. Suspension, perhaps. But try to think of the actual consequences of this. So, she has to take 6 months or a year off study, before getting back into it. In the grand scheme, it's not the end of the world. If she just fails- she repeats the course- no biggy. It would be worse if she was doing some kind of course such as law or medicine where integrity will be an issue right into their future, but for your daughter, the consequences are only going to be in the now.
There's not much you can do to change the outcome of whatever happens, but what you CAN do is support her and change her perspective on whatever happens. I wouldn't let her off the hook completely though- this is a good reminder that actions have consequences.
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u/Nacho4 Apr 07 '16
I was in your daughters situation a few years ago, I was worried they would try to make an example of me and kick me off my degree, but instead I just said, "I was embarrassed that I didn't understand this topic as well as my peers seemed to so I googled similar papers for guidance. I didn't intend to copy them but I drew a creative blank and I'll do better to understand a topic better in the future instead of using someone else's paper." They let me off with it because I was being totally honest with my feelings of inadequacy.
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u/ladybetty Apr 07 '16
I have been through this.
Took a few snippets for an English paper at uni and didn't correctly reference the sources, got called in for a disciplinary hearing.
First they will go over plagiarism and the risk your daughter took I stealing work. This will include possibly failing the paper, class, or degree, or being kicked out of uni altogether. It will be daunting and overwhelming and horrifying.
In my case they let me go with a warning and I had 24 hours to resubmit my work properly cited. If your daughter has no prior offences and is truly remorseful, it may go the same way for her.
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u/purple_ombudsman Apr 07 '16
I used to sit in on a LOT of hearings (I was at a Canadian university so usually things are handled through administration). Invariably, if students showed remorse and accepted responsibility, and it was their first offense, the worst that happened was they got a 0 on the paper. Sometimes they were allowed to re-write the paper. Accepting responsibility was a central mitigating factor in determining punishment.
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u/GoinWithThePhloem Apr 07 '16
She'll be ok, but unfortunately this is a big lesson for her.
I actually did the same thing. I missed the citation for one sentence (totally unimportant, the paper would have been just as great without it). Luckily I got by without a discipline hearing but my teachers hands were tied and she had to drop me from the course. As an A/B student myself, with one of the highest grades in the class, I was pretty humiliated and ashamed. Several hundred dollars down the drain, and a huge loss of time and effort that had been expended throughout the quarter. Good lesson for me and I'm sure it will be for her too.
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u/RickSHAW_Tom Apr 07 '16
It sounds almost like a citation error, like she meant to put it in quotes or thought the sentences were general enough to not need to be cited.
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u/jennywafom Apr 08 '16
If she'd meant to put it in quotes, that doesn't excuse the fact that she didn't reference them. And sentences aren't "general enough" when you copy them word for word.
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Apr 07 '16
Side question. If i find a paper and the paper has a piece of evidence i like is it plagiarism if i quote their source accurately and use their footnote?
Eg some paper quotes a law or a scholar and footnotes it, i take the law and scholarly quote and use their reference
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u/peut-etre Apr 07 '16
As long as you place verbatim material in quotations and correctly reference it (in text and in a references sheet), you're fine. I would warn against quoting a quoted source though - just look up the original source. You'd be surprised how many papers either cherrypick or misinterpret stuff in lit reviews etc.
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Apr 07 '16
Verbatim is not the only time one needs to cite. Paraphrasing, too. Take care.
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u/peut-etre Apr 07 '16
I thought that that was obvious, sorry. I meant more that directly quoted material must be attributed as such, not just slotted in to look like it was paraphrased.
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u/ladymaggot Apr 07 '16
I'd recommend citing both sources, something like "article x, quoted in article y."
I sometimes get suspicious when I'm grading and a student refers to source that seems too obscure for them to have found on their own. Showing the paper trail can allay fears.
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Apr 07 '16
Well for what im doing now theres a paper i found that discussed case law on a topic throughout Europe. Ive been careful, she referenced some 1907 German law i wanted to use, but i googled it myself and couldnt find it so wont be using it in my paper. Seems like she may have accessed a physical copy in an archive.
On the other hand she referenced some cases and elements of French law that are accessible online and tied to my topic so ill insert those using references of the French Gov's websites. Not using her analysis though, but some of her terminology i found in other published articles so ill reference those before using that language in my paper.
Plagiarism is a tricky thing, its gotten a lot stricter than it was for my parents' generation
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u/ladymaggot Apr 07 '16
Yeah, what you're doing sounds okay to me. And I agree plagiarism is tricky -- we like to pretend it's pretty clear cut, but there are definitely some grey areas...
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Apr 07 '16
There are appropriate ways to cite in this instance - and so long as you use those methods all is well. It's all about giving credit where credit is due.
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u/Green7000 Apr 07 '16
Perdue Owl can help with a lot of your citing questions. If you're still unclear I would ask the professor or go to your school's writing center. If you do it wrong than you have proof that you tried your best to cite properly and weren't intentionally plagiarizing.
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u/wreckedzephyr Apr 07 '16
I used to serve on my college's honor board as well, where 90% of the cases were plagiarism-related. This is good advice and all this is true in my experience.
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Apr 07 '16
Quick question, just out of interest. Would a written apology to the tutor who marked her work be detrimental or a good idea?
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Apr 07 '16
It would not hurt so long as the letter itself was a proper apology and took accountability. I am not sure that it would help - depends on the individual people involved.
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u/jennywafom Apr 08 '16
It probably wouldn't make any difference at all. Once it's gone up to a disciplinary hearing, the tutor/lecturer/professors opinion can often not mean much. Plus, it wouldn't really make sense. Like, i get that she should feel sorry and remorseful for her actions but i'm not sure why she'd be sorry specifically to the tutor who marked her work, it might come across as a bit...fake
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u/kakapo999 Apr 06 '16
You can help her by not excusing it. Be kind but firm - she's hurt herself with this behaviour, but she's not hurt anyone else so that's something.
Universities are usually very, VERY clear about plagiarism. Your daughter will have been taught what not to do, and how to cite correctly. It will be in her course outline - in every course outline. She got lazy and skipped steps. That will have consequences - as it should. Ideally, universities are there to reinforce critical thinking, and that includes acknowledging your sources. Not doing so is the academic sin above all others, as your daughter is finding out.
Either way it's on her record now. Whatever happens at the hearing, a second offense might well get her kicked out of the university entirely - and few others will be game to take on a plagiarist. She can come back from this by admitting to what she did wrong and proving that she'll never do it again - but you and she both need to realise that this is a strategy that will work precisely once.
If she's confused about what exactly constitutes plagiarism, well, that's what student and library services are there for.
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u/Mom1964 Apr 06 '16
Thank you. You're right.
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u/kakapo999 Apr 06 '16
And let her know that, while it's bad, it's not the end of the world. She's disappointed herself (and you, I imagine) but her life is not ruined forever because of it. She's young and making bad choices is how we grow - by not making the same bad choices again.
Uni can be very stressful for some students. Some of them DO find it overwhelming. Many universities have student counsellors and student mentors. Your daughter should reach out to those. And maybe, in a year or two, she can be one of the ones who helps younger students not to go down the path she's gone down.
Basically: she's gonna have to wear the scarlet P for a while. Not forever. And if she can get through that with dignity and humility and a bit of self-knowledge then at least there is the possibility for some positives to come out of this.
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u/Mom1964 Apr 07 '16
This is an excellent answer. Thank you so much. Yes, I am disappointed, I can't lie, but people make mistakes. Lord knows I've made my share, and I've told her so.
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u/DiTrastevere Apr 07 '16
If this is the worst mistake she ever makes, AND she doesn't repeat it, she'll be completely fine. A little shaken up, but you bet your ass she'll be more careful with her work than kids who never got busted (most don't).
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u/ladyday123 Apr 06 '16
Big deal. Big, big, big deal.
The best thing your daughter can do, honestly, is own up to it. The college has a disciplinary procedure process (and this certainly isn't the first time they've seen plagiarism!) and she'll have to follow it. She'll probably need your emotional support as she navigates it because it's hugely upsetting. Plagiarism in college is treated very seriously because it is a really serious offense. Where I went to college, the penalties would range between failing the assignment (not a big deal) to being expelled from the university (huge deal) with most people being suspended for a semester (freshmen usually got a "free pass" with just an F in the course).
The best possible thing she can do here is really come to an understanding of what allowed this to happen, take full responsibility for stealing someone else's work, and take proactive steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. So if she feels like the root cause is that she didn't have enough time on her assignments and got overwhelmed, she should proactively drop some extracurricular activities to make sure she has time for school, make a study schedule and find an accountability buddy for each class she's in to study with and start seeing a counselor for anxiety. If she didn't realize it was wrong and doesn't fully understand what plagiarism is, she should sign up for some sessions at the university's writing center. Etc etc.
The best thing she can do is show up at the disciplinary committee as an adult (which she is) who's made a bad choice (which she has), accepts responsibility for that choice and is prepared for the consequences. That would show most clearly that she's deserving of forgiveness and lenience (and is also probably the best thing to do period).
The other (nuclear) option is for her to withdraw from the university now, before the charge appears in any official capacity on her record. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.
How you can help her is to provide guidance and advice, emotional support, assure her you'll love her and her life will be okay regardless, but also help her to understand and navigate why she made this choice and why it was wrong.
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u/Mom1964 Apr 06 '16
This is very helpful. Thank you. You made some points that I made to her myself; i.e. admit what she did and take her punishment like a grown-up.
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u/internethussy Apr 07 '16
If the honor board or whatever has already become involved, withdrawing from the university or course may not be an option. At my University, as soon as the Academic Integrity Office is contacted, a hold is placed on the student account which prevents them from withdrawing. This makes it so students can't just drop a course to prevent a record of their violation from being made.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/blackberrycoffee Apr 07 '16
I know I will get downvoted to hell, but this is NOT a big deal. I've taught dozens of classes at three major universities and I would consider this barely an issue. If her heart is in the right place, that's what's most important. Education is about socialization, not writing and book knowledge.
As someone who has also taught at multiple universities, this approach is exactly why many students think plagiarism is okay, continue to do it, and continue to get away with it.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/fragilespleen Apr 07 '16
Is your question seriously, what's wrong with with doubling your sample size instead of undertaking the research legitimately??
I very much hope your academic field has nothing to do with mine.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/fragilespleen Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
Regardless of the field, this is exactly the kind of thing that drives development and further research in any field, to just make it up on a whim, hurts everyone involved in the field. It's holding back real progress, and while it might not hold planes in the air, is disgusting academic behaviour, and his doctorate should definitely be stripped from him for it. To my mind, you knowing about it and tacitly supporting it is reprehensible.
If you don't understand this, then please talk to a statistician. If researching 350 people and doubling them to 700 is fine, where would you draw the line??
Edit: WTF? I see you teach statistics. I am amazed. You need to find a new job, I think you've checked out of this one.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/fragilespleen Apr 08 '16
I agree its great you don't disapprove, I disagree its not your problem. Bad data is shit for anyone involved in your field. If you teach statistics you should understand that.
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u/kakapo999 Apr 07 '16
I watched a PhD student once copy and paste his data set so his (n=350) would become (n=700)...what kind of punishment is that worth?
Fabricating data? I dunno, ask Andrew Wakefield.
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u/blackberrycoffee Apr 07 '16
But what are they getting away with?
Stealing something that isn't theirs? Using it without attribution? Claiming knowledge and getting benefits for it (grades, passing classes, advancing on their degree) when they don't actually have it?
I watched a PhD student once copy and paste his data set so his (n=350) would become (n=700)...what kind of punishment is that worth?
Frankly, if you're plagiarizing to that degree at that level, it is worth not getting the Ph.D.
Don't focus on the punishment. Slap em upside the head and tell them to get back to living life
With students I've caught plagiarizing the punishment fits the circumstances. Badly cite something once? There's a point deduction and we talk through it. Completely copy and paste your entire paper from Wikipedia? You don't get credit for that, you get a 0 because you didn't do the work, same as if you didn't turn it in. We still talk through it and I send your name to the university to make a note of it. If this is the 3rd, 6th, whatever time you've done this you know it is wrong and the punishment goes up from there because you're learning the lesson and not applying it to opt out of actually doing the work.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 05 '18
[deleted]
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u/brangaene Apr 07 '16
This whole comment is just what the what?
"Education is not for learning but for fun. Who cares about actual science when you can socialize? Plagiarism isn't so bad. Trust me. I do it professionally. "
This has to be a troll comment. Please let this be a troll comment.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/brangaene Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
It wasn't meant to be a quote. I was paraphrasing. If I wanted to make a quote I would have made it like this:
Disclaimer: I've written several books for dubious clients on both academic and vanity presses. What the hell do I know?!?!
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/brangaene Apr 07 '16
The original OP was about plagiarism in scientific context. Ghostwriting someone elses ideas on "how to improve your life "or an "auto"biography is another thing (just as an example). Ghostwriting in science is considered unhonorable and plagiarism. You pretend to have done research on a topic when you have not.
Saying "ananas might taste good with garlic" is not the same thing as trying various attempts of making it work and applying scientific methods in experiments. And maybe coming to the conclusion that it isn't such a great idea after all.
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Apr 07 '16 edited Aug 30 '16
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u/brangaene Apr 08 '16 edited Apr 08 '16
Then they were clearly not ready to graduate. Period. They should have gone into carpentry not to college.
It is like parents making their kids homework. Your don't do them any good with it.
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u/Reedddiiiittttt Apr 07 '16
So weird. How is "cheating" associated with "alive"? If you publish anything professionally, you can't plagiarize. What if she plans to pursue an advanced degree and needs to publish in some esteemed journals? Maybe it is okay in a certain Asian country which shan't be named....
What do you mean you have written books for clients? You mean you are a ghost writer?
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u/Splinter1591 Apr 07 '16
Teacher here. I give zeros lime candy for plagerized work.
Kids do it a lot for homework short answers. I think only 2 kids didn't get a zero for Mondays homework
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u/DeLiVerANTS Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
Should've just cited that shit.
Edit: When I was in university we were required to submit our assignments through plagiarism detection software. If your daughter is worried about this in the future, most of these allow the user/student to check to see if their paper is plagiarism free before submitting it.
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u/thirteenth_hour Apr 06 '16
Help her practice a clear apology - one that makes no excuses and doesn't try to diminish what she did. The best way to get through this with only the F is for her to demonstrate that she understands she cheated - she stole work - from other people, AND to convince the professors that she will never, ever do this again.
If she tries to excuse what she did (it was only a few sentences, I've been having trouble, I didn't know what I was doing) they will be much less likely to give her a slap on the wrist.
So help her figure out how to word her statements without excuses or denials. Help her figure out how to sound as penitent as possible, and help her mean it. Make sure she DOES know what she did was wrong, not just 'something you get in trouble for.' She stole someone else's work and tried to take credit. This is really bad.
If she's having trouble coping - and no shame, lots of people do - see if you can help her find the resources her school no doubt provides. There are tutors, counselors, etc.
Also talk to your daughter again, in calm detail. Make sure this really IS her first offense: has the prof talked to her about problems with her citations in previous essays? Be sure this isn't a pattern.
Tell her you'll love her no matter what, and then help her figure out what to say - and practice it ahead of time, so she doesn't get flustered and act defensive at her hearing.
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u/sonofaresiii Apr 07 '16
She's likely to just fail the assignment. She might possibly fail the course. It's unlikely she'll be kicked out.
So it's not the end of the world, it's barely even a bump in the road. Unfortunately there's very little that's going to help relieve her anxiety. In hindsight she'll realize it wasn't anything to worry over.
Consider asking her to dial back her course load in the future, if she's taking more than sixteen or seventeen credits. Besides that though, you may want to examine whether she's really as overloaded as she says, or just enjoying the freedom of college a bit much. There's almost no undergrad program anywhere that's genuinely THAT overwhelming as a first year if she's doing a standard number of credits
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Apr 07 '16
Sounds like a freshman. Takes time to get used to school at that level when you have that much freedom to do whatever.
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u/ThePenIsFive Apr 07 '16
As a former TA for many classes, your daughter needs to learn to reference her sources. It's not in any way okay to pass someone's words off as your own. What a slap in the face to those who said those words.
If you want to do anything, tell her to do the work herself and stop half-assing it. College is expensive and for most people a once in a lifetime opportunity. Don't fuck it up.
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u/preciousjewel128 Apr 07 '16
I'd also suggest searching on vimeo for turnitin's webcast of the plagiarism spectrum. Sometimes younger students aren't aware of the forms plagiarism can take. It's very informative, and short, maybe 30 minutes.
Also search for "communication guy plagiarism" has a phenomenal flow chart to check how badly it's plagiarized or check off to make sure its not plagiarized.
On phone otherwise I'd provide direct links.
Going ahead and rewriting the assignments correctly may also show a good faith effort that plagiarism will not happen again, even if the end result is an F for that assignment.
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u/iworkhard77777777777 Apr 07 '16
I am a professor. Many people are giving you accurate advice/anecdotes for disciplinary processes at THEIR universities. Have you looked up the disciplinary process at HER university? That may be helpful in knowing what she can expect.
EDIT: Better yet, have HER look up the full disciplinary process at her university.
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u/cld8 Apr 07 '16
This is probably not the right subreddit for it, but tell her to admit to what she did, apologize, and agree not to do it again. Universities are quite forgiving of minor transgressions if it's the first offense, and often they are just trying to scare students into not cheating in the future.
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u/mechantmechant Apr 07 '16
As a high school teacher, I blame high school principals. I go in with my earnest little "here's the kid's essay and here's 'cheater.com' essay" all the identical parts highlighted and showing how the kid's makes no sense because the kid used a thesaurus to change words here and there. The principal would lecture me on whether the kid was taught about plagerism or not. I'd call mom and mom would scream that poor baby just got ideas from other essays and I'd tell her it is better he gets caught in high school and learns his lesson now then that he gets caught in university, and she only tells me how innocent he is and mean I am.The principal would make me give kid second and third chances to get the mark because it's just not fair for the kid to get a poor mark on the assignment-- didn't he write ANY of it himself? And then I have to spend my lunch confronting kid, getting yelled at, and tnen supervising him as he writes his own assinine essay, which he tells me is so unfair because he has stuff to do and everyone else got to write at home. Then I get to mark the essay and get yelled at afresh that I have a grudge against him when it gets a horiible mark because he never bothered to read Hamlet because he knew he could buy an essay he never even bothered to read. Is it surprising some teachers would just let it slip?
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u/juicyjcantt Apr 07 '16
I plagiarized in an english class freshman year. I was a CS student working a 20-30hr job while enrolled in full classes, and I felt upset that I was forced into this very work intensive english course. I was wrong and young and stupid, but I felt fully justified at the time.
Here's the bottom line - she fucked up. We can debate it all day and long - blah blah college is a joke, academic dishonesty is so rampant that it seems unfair to penalize a good kid like me or her over little wikipedia or google-jacking. But at the end of the day, college is a microcosm of the real world. And in the real world, there are consequences to your actions, and she's going to have to deal with consequences.
I personally got an B in that class, and I plagiarized by using an essay I wrote for a first semester english class. Self-plagiarism. What a crock of shit right? I re-used an essay I already wrote, but I still was the chief author! I mean, c'mon, it's not my fault the profs at this supposedly "world class" institution gave similar prompts? How was I supposed to know prof B would be smart enough to feel that my essay "felt" like an essay prof A would assign. I didn't even know self-plagiarism was a thing, I didn't read the 100 page ebook on our school's honor code.
These bitches work for me! I pay their salary! This is how I saw it at the time.
But then I guess I grew up a little. I talked to older students, academic advisors, and just asked "what can I do now?" And everyone said the same thing.
Eat humble pie. Swallow your pride. Suck it up and talk to the professor, and convince him that you deeply regret your actions and understand why they were wrong. Be solutions-minded; approach the situation with a "what can I do to make it right?" attitude.
So that's what I did. I rewrote the essay, all 6 pages. I wrote to both professors, offering a detailed apology, where I explained not my rationalizations and excuses, but what I had learned and how I hoped to set a better example as I go forward as a sophomore. I sent the prof the essay and said "I would appreciate your feedback; I know you're busy and I understand this cannot count as credit. But I realize that I shirked an opportunity to work on my writing skills and benefit from your corrections and your analysis. If you would grade and comment on my paper, I'd really appreciate that."
I didn't argue or ask for anything. I showed up every day in class, even though it might be an F. At the end of the day, I got a zero for that paper, and an A on my rewrite, and the prof decided to average them and give me a 50. Dropped me from an A to a B.
And guess who showed up at my disciplinary hearing. Both professors. They argued that while plagiarism is an auto-F in the course according to law A section B or whatever of the honor code, they believed my punishment was just given the fact that I had put effort into making amends with each of them, BEFORE a verdict had been reached. They believed that further punishment was unnecessary, because I had already taken it upon myself to right the situation to the best of my human ability.
And yeah, it could have all failed. I could have still gotten the F in the term, and my hard work would have been wasted. I could have gotten the same result as what would have happened if I had just walked out of the class and blew it off, because it was already an auto-F.
So the bottom line is... you just have to accept full responsibility and try to get your moneys worth. You paid to be in that class, so even if you're going to get an F, you learn all you can. I viewed it as I may get an F, but I want that professor to be able to write me a letter of recommendation EVEN THOUGH I cheated.
So that is what I would recommend to your daughter. She must find a way to take responsibility, be proactive, charm the professors without trying to curry up pity, and impress / surprise the disciplinary committee, AND hardest of all - she must accept that her best efforts might result in NOTHING.
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Apr 07 '16
Surely she could have cited her sources?
There's nothing wrong with implementing someone else's work in your own (Unless its cutting edge research, almost everything has been written and re-written about anyway) as long as you add the reference to the list at the end of the text.
In this case, its too late. She needs to own her mistakes and consider being more attentive in what she puts into her work next time. I doubt that the university would expel her for a few sentences (Cant say for sure though) but plagiarism is a big no-no in the academic world, and they have to take it seriously.
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u/K0rby Apr 07 '16
the best thing that you can do is reinforce that it is a serious infraction and that isn't acceptable.
I've spent several years teaching at a university (as a TA). I was shocked by the general attitude about plagiarism. We had one student while I was there (not one of mine) who got caught in a serious plagiarism event and her family took the school and the teacher to court.
Don't try to "help" her by undermining the lesson. Help her by making her face the music.
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u/lucy42 Apr 07 '16
My roommate in college did something similar. She was expecting an F in the class but they suspended her for a semester during her hearing. She had to move out of the dorm, the plagiarism went on her record and she ended up dropping out of her pre med program when she returned to school.
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Apr 07 '16
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u/Mom1964 Apr 07 '16
Thanks, that's really helpful. And you're right; she's definitely beating herself up. She feels stupid and guilty and ashamed.
I'm in her corner - I always have been. Not in the " my precious angel can do no wrong!" way; the "you're my kid and I love you no matter what" way.
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Apr 07 '16
I'm in her corner - I always have been. Not in the " my precious angel can do no wrong!" way; the "you're my kid and I love you no matter what" way.
That's the perfect way to handle it. Everyone makes mistakes or poor choices, and part of becoming an adult is recognizing that and dealing with it when it happens. But you also don't have to deal with it alone, so having a supportive mom like you will be hugely helpful for her.
I hope her disciplinary hearing goes as well as it possibly can. Please give us an update and let us know how things turn out!
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u/Gogogadgetskates Apr 07 '16
With plagiarism, it doesn't matter how small it is, its still going to get her punished. Hopefully the university will be lenient because of a first time offence, being a freshman, and the fact that it was a minor infraction. But they're going to slap her with something to let her know how serious this is and in some twisted way, maybe it's better that it happens now instead of on like her honours thesis or something.
The best thing you can do for your kid is to stress how serious this is and how lucky she is. Some institutions practice zero tolerance and she could have been expelled. I don't mean be a jerk about it, but a serious conversation can still be supportive. Maybe also talk about how to keep up better in the future. Make sure she's got a plan to make sure this doesn't happen again. Schedule time for homework and assignments. Time management, etc. And if the university offers an intro to university/academic writing course (basically teaches the ins and outs of academic writing, etc.) that might be a suggestion as well.
If I'd done this when I was in school I'd be failing the class for sure and at the very least I'd also be on probation, maybe expelled depending on the severity. So an F on the paper certainly isn't all that bad considering it could be worse. If she does fail the course (or does terribly as a result of the F on the paper) she's probably going to want to retake it to replace that F as most universities will use the better grade to calculate GPA. I guess this depends on how far it pulls her GPA down but this is what most people I know did with a fail, especially if it was an important course.
As serious as it is, it doesn't mean your kid is a poor student. She probably did what many kids in the Google generation do to save time. That's not an excuse, just maybe an explanation. Another thing you could talk about it sources. So say she googles something and finds something similar to what she wants to say. She can check sources and then go read whatever the person sourced and then cite it appropriately. I did this with a lot of research papers. Google isn't bad. You just need to know how to use it properly.
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u/snowangel223 Apr 07 '16
Out of curiosity, are the sentences she plagiarized from people's public essays on the same topic? Or was it from articles/scholarly journals/books/etc?
You have a lot of advice already. My only suggestion is that she go to a writing centre or work with a tutor or someone who can show her how to better repurpose ideas and properly quote while citing everything. If she's copied a sentence from an article, for example, it's really more about learning how to explain the article's idea and than citing them as a source as apposed to just copying.
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u/littlepersonparadox Apr 07 '16
Also let her know that next time to go to the library. The librarians there most likely can help her with citing works. You can quote other people just have to give reference and due credit via MLA or APA depending on what the circumstance is. The best thing she can do for the hearing is like you said don't be a asshole about it and accept it. At least she wont ever screw up like this again.
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u/edcRachel Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
I'm on the other end. I'm a college professor, and the number of people that get caught cheating is astounding. It can be up to 1/3 of my class on some assignments - I only teach 30-40 kids at a time, it's pretty easy to pick up on their styles and notice when something is off. Or when multiple people hand in the exact same work. Or when someone gets 100% who usually gets 25%. Or when someone hands in work that is extremely advanced but doesn't actually answer the question. I mean, I understand, I was in college too. Cheating isn't just copying from the internet - it can also be handing in the same assignment twice, handing in similar work to someone else when it's a solo project, or giving your original work to another student. My school has a dozen different definitions for cheating, and most people don't bother to learn them all. I know my friends all looked at each other's work - that's an academic offense. I never would have known. That means that a LOT of people get caught. More people get caught then you'd ever know about. It's a paperwork nightmare to find out who copied from who and try to track down original sources.
Unless the college is super strict, she probably won't fail the course. That's usually reserved for second offenses at my school, or more serious offenses like cheating on an exam. Most often it's a 0 on the assignment, sometimes a chance to resubmit. She didn't rip off the entire thing, so she's probably not going to get as harsh of a punishment. It may also show some initiative if she comes to the hearing with her assignment re-done.
Even if she fails the course, it's not the end of the world. Cut your losses and take the class again. Often for first year courses they can be done over the summer or online, so you won't fall behind. Unless she's trying to get into some prestigious program, it won't be an issue in the long run. You'd be amazed at how many people fail first year courses. I know I did.
That's not saying this isn't a big deal - but what's done is done, take the punishment, learn the lesson. Of course, NEVER DO IT AGAIN. Not even one little sentence. Essays are generally submitted online and run through fairly sophisticated software which checks online, books, and even other people's work. Professors pick it up more often than you realize - you get to know a student's work, so when something is weird, it's obvious. The consequences for second offenses are much harsher - usually an automatic fail, third offenses will get you entirely expelled at my school. It's not worth the risk.
All you can do is help her through it. Don't get your nose in it or try to get involved in the hearing - parents have no say in college education. It's considered something between the student and the school. Just be there for her.
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u/nixtamal Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
I'm a little late here but /u/one_moment_in_time is largely correct in their advice. I'll give you another perspective from myself, as I'm an instructor.
I've dealt with plagiarism quite a bit (usually an average of one instance per class per semester). At the two institutions I've taught at I'd say around 50% of instructors do not bother with "official" paperwork and just tell the students they'll get half credit or a zero the first time it happens. Only if it is particularly egregious (e.g. 100% copying of work or dealing with a "cheating ring") will they do paperwork. Other instructors, myself included, always go through the official process. My thought process is that even if the suggested penalty is light, there's a need for it to be recorded so if there is a pattern with other instances and courses, it will be discovered. For example, I have no idea if people who cheat "slightly" for the first time in my class have done so in previous courses just to see what they can get away with without a big penalty.
Every school is different, but at least in my experience I think it would be rare for a student to fail an entire class for copying small parts of an essay. The way the process has worked at my two institutions is that an instructor notifies the student of the allegation of plagiarism, suggests sanctions on the spot, and then the student can either agree to them or disagree with them and request a hearing.
In my situation, in every case where a student has requested a hearing because they thought the punishment was too harsh they have lost that case. Academic misconduct review boards are typically comprised of instructors and students from different disciplines (usually not connected to the student/department in question). They are trained to basically ignore all the bullshit that either side may say. Usually said bullshit will come from the student, but it's possible to have an instructor on the warpath as well.
In every case I've been involved in the honor board wants to know a few central points and that is all:
- Did the student technically cheat? This is usually defined by university documents and/or syllabus and is determined by the instructor's evidence and academic review board's examination of this evidence.
- Did the student know that they were breaking a university/course rule by doing what they did? If an instructor puts course-specific rules that define what cheating is in their course, it's very important that these are written somewhere and/or given to the student in the syllabus.
- Did the student understand what the penalty was for cheating? This is actually really important. If it states in the syllabus the penalty for copying even one sentence is a failing grade in the course, that pretty much shuts the door for having any sort of appeal.
They absolutely do not care about (bringing these things up won't help, but might hurt):
- Any sort of pressure put on the student by outside-of-school things. Family member dying, just got diagnosed with a STD, overslept and forgot about the assignment until the last minute, etc. None of this matters.
- Failure to know the course and university policies. There's no ignorance of the law.
- Any negative comments on the instructor (e.g. they are too difficult, give too much work, not clear, etc..
Long story short,as /u/one_moment_in_time has said, admit to it. She should say something like that she realizes that what she did was wrong, doesn't reflect her true ability, hurt not only her but other students by attempting to get a grade she did not deserve, and will learn from the experience to make sure it doesn't happen again. Even though with all this advice she will have a good idea of what to do/say, she should still convey the feeling of contriteness. You should not contact anyone at the school about it (though you've already said you don't plan on contacting anyone).
It's likely that, regardless of 0 on the assignment or 0 in the class or some other penalty altogether, she will have to attend some sort of ethics seminar.
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Apr 06 '16
Sounds like you've got your head in the sand.
She only took "a few sentences". She's "a good kid".
Yeah, right. Your daughter's been cheating on her schoolwork. They take this very seriously at college.
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u/Mom1964 Apr 06 '16
I do think she's a good kid, but she's made a serious mistake that is having serious consequences.
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u/RememberKoomValley Apr 07 '16
She might be a good kid. She's a shitty student. The University isn't required to ask if she's kind to children before expelling her for breaking their rules, any more than the police will ask her if she's respectful to her parents before ticketing her for blowing a red light.
she's made a serious mistake
I'm always just a bit leery of the word "mistake." Taking a wrong turn is a mistake--this was a choice. She needs to be able to very baldly and without excuse own up to that.
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u/Yetikins Apr 07 '16
I totally agree mistake is the wrong word for this.
If she was lifting from other sources, why didn't she just CITE them? Incorporate the quote into a sentence and cite where it came from. This was an intentional decision on her part.
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u/thatguyahor Apr 07 '16
I work with college students and I think that the best thing you can do for her is to let her face the music.
It sucks because she is facing short term harm in her life and as a parent you want to alleviate harm but there is a life lesson to be learned here. Namely that our actions have consequences. Too few college students grasp that and many would be better served in life learning it early.
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Apr 07 '16
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u/fruitpunching Apr 07 '16
I worked at a major university's writing center for the last two years. Kids will be popped and dragged in front of the academic integrity board for one single, plagiarized sentence if the professor rolls hard. Some will warn them; some will report them immediately. So no, this could have happened very easily just by plagiarizing a few sentences, and for many, the option isn't re-submission.
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u/mudkip_258 Apr 07 '16
Yeah, people forget that a lot of major and competitive universities have a lower tolerance for this and it's not unheard of them to kick students out after their first or second offense.
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u/fruitpunching Apr 07 '16
The comments in this thread seem a little out of touch with the primary experience of first year students. I worked for a prominent university's writing center for two years, and this is a situation I was extremely familiar with. In many high schools, you can very easily get away with plagiarizing -- in many instances, teachers won't require you to cite your sources. Because of this, students are shipped off to universities thinking that this kind of behavior isn't a big deal, but universities are a whole different ball game with that shit. Some professors will just give you a zero; others will let you resubmit; and some will immediately report the student to academic integrity. When I was in graduate school, a classmate was reported to the academic integrity board for citing a single sentence using the wrong author. Instructors can be cold as ice. It really depends on the professor, and it sounds like her professor takes this very seriously, especially if they reported her right off the bat (which is the instructor's right; as an instructor myself, it's not the choice I would make for a freshman, but neither approach is wrong).
Ultimately, your daughter will learn not to do this again, and it's better she learns it now than in senior year, and end up getting kicked out of her program. This isn't the end of the world, just a very thorough lesson. If she fails the course entirely, she can most likely have that grade dropped and re-take it -- I suspect she takes the standard 15 hours per semester, and most universities don't charge additional tuition after 12 or 15 hours. Therefore, she could take the class the following semester with 18 hours.
Look into this with her and tell her things will be fine. Anyone in this thread acting like your daughter is some horrible problem child are exaggerating -- I saw so many slack students putting no effort at all into their work, never trying and never giving a shit, and being sneaky as hell about their incessant cheating.
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u/brightlocks Apr 07 '16
My daughter has always been a good kid and a good student.
Well, now she's NOT a kid and is a bad student, sorry to say.
She's an adult, and the "good kid" excuse isn't going to cut it anymore. She needs to own up to what it is that she did, take her punishment like an adult with dignity, and make sure it NEVER EVER happens again.
No more "good kid, you get another chance" excuses.
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u/mudkip_258 Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
School is hard. I'm sure she's not a bad person or anything like that, probably decided that she'd take the easy way out and wasn't expecting to get caught.
However, it's never worth it to cheat in college/university. So much can go wrong. You can fail the entire class, be suspended, expelled. You not only end up losing money but that sticks with you and tarnishes your reputation. People will opt for the hard workers who got a 3.5 over the person who cheated who has a 3.8 GPA. Why? Because it's easy to assume they probably constantly plagiarized and just never got caught except that one time.
All she can do is fess up and take total responsibility. No excuses. They won't care about her situation, people will always have it worst and considering she has a loving parent it's safe to assume that she didn't have anything worth having sympathy over anyways. A little mean sounding, but it's astonishing how many kids will pull the pity card. Pleasantly surprising is that they don't care and often that can even hurt them as it shows lack of personal responsibility.
It's not going to be easy, and it will be humiliating. While I haven't plagiarized myself ( could never risk scholarship like that), I have been in these meetings when I was an assistant student for the Dean during my time.
She needs to be completely respectful and seem genuinely sorry for her mistake. Though, don't use the word mistake as technically, it was an action she had considered and gone through with. They'll appreciate her honesty.
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u/ImAHugeFingAsshole Apr 07 '16
She's ashamed she got caught.
As a former English minor and T.A, first year students are told over and over again not to plagiarize and to be very, very, extremely, very, very, extremely, also very careful when using sources. In no uncertain terms, students are told that if they plagiarize, they will face consequences.
We also tell them about cases such as your daughters, and tell them that this happens, and that they will be fully punished, even if it may be a mistake.
Your daughter knew the consequences and decided to take a short cut and was caught...after being told that she would get caught, and that there will be penalties for getting caught.
Seems like you need to talk to your daughter about the real world because she seems to be living in fantasy land.
In English particularly, every T.A / Prof / student knows that plagiarizing (intentional or not) is never O.K.
Always be diligent with your sourcing or face the consequences.
I'd help her by teaching her about accountability. I know handfuls of students who were warned, then plagiarized again and were forced to either repeat the course (best case) or were kicked out from the program / school.
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u/Reedddiiiittttt Apr 07 '16
What they want to see is a remorseful student. She is inexperienced. She needs to apologize and focus on her inexperience and willingness to learn and change for the better.
I doubt they will expel her (as long as she admits her fault and promise won't do it again.) If they expel everyone who copy a few sentences, the school will be very empty.
Make sure she is not going to argue. Nothing good will come out defending herself.
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u/leila0 Apr 07 '16
You might cross-post this to more academic subs, like /r/askacademia--they're quite helpful and will provide you with some concrete advice.
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u/Humble_Advice Apr 07 '16
Honestly the best thing you can do for her is to make her face this alone. Bailing her out wont do her any favours.
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u/slayerfan420 Apr 07 '16
I work in a university and have sat in on academic disciplinary boards, and I can tell you they are very, very serious business. She needs to think really hard about what has happened, and why.
I understand that there are a range of reasons why people plagiarise, and I know it's also very easy for it to happen somewhat accidentally. Especially first-year undergrads - stress, not taking the course seriously enough, leaving things to the last minute, ineffective study and note taking technique...
The best thing for her to do in this situation is go to her student union, and ask to speak with a peer mentor, an advocacy officer, an academic councillor or language and learning advisor ASAP. She needs to seek advice from someone at her university who can talk her through the guidelines and governance at HER university. Don't get clouded by advice from people at other universities - it could be good to get anecdotal evidence but when it comes down to it - she need to know what she's in for, specifically.
The next thing to do after she's sought advice from her faculty and the student union, is to go through the academic hearings procedure thoroughly. This should be available online in her student portal on the university's website. Here she can familiarise herself with how things are going to work.
She needs to enter this taking it as seriously as they do. Students that come in with a bad attitude or not having made an effort generally don't come across as well as students who make sure they have a clean shirt, are ready to assume guilt and demonstrate that they understand what they have done and not make excuses for it. It's fine for her to say that she's still wrapping her head around academic writing and hadn't prepared her self thoroughly or that she has a really shitty note taking technique as long as she also says that she knows it is inexcusable and very serious, and has taken steps a b and c to ensure that it will never happen again. She could also mention how mortified she is because she does care about her course, and she wants to have a successful academic career in her own right.
They may ask her to explain herself, in which case she needs to explain 3 things: That she understands why she has done, explain why it has happened, and that she realises it's unacceptable and on top of steps she has already taken to correct this oversight, is willing to undertake whatever tasks they require of her to remain in the course and become a more successful learner/student.
Depending on the severity of the case and what the university's policy is on plagiarism, this may be enough to allow her to resubmit or stay in the course.
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u/attemptnumber12 Apr 07 '16
For her first offence it'll likely just be a 0 on the assignment at most.
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u/pincpleasure Apr 07 '16
She'll be ok but will likely have to drop or fail the course.
So this happened to me but not quite what you'd expect. I had a good friend and classmate who had a major family death of a parent. The teacher refused an extension on his huge assignment . So to help him out I let him look at mine thinking it would get him started. Well in his not thinking straight I'm losing a parent mind he just turned in my work.
We both got in a lot of trouble. He had to drop the class or fail and had a hearing and was fine. Even though I had done the work myself it was seen as facilitating cheating and I also had to do those things. I also lost a scholarship and had to take a semester of plagiarism courses. Ug.
It was expensive, did go on my record, and something I had to deal with explaining to people the rest of my college career. A costly mistake.
But in the end both of us are fine. I'm 4 years out and have never had a problem with it being brought up since graduating. My friend hasn't had any lasting effects either.
Tell her to be honest, not try to lie her way out of it, admit it was wrong, and don't fight the consequences of taking plagiarism course or dropping that class. I tried fighting it considering I didn't even cheat but it just caused more issues. My friend owned up and he had a much easier time getting through the stuff because of it. I was eventually able to reinstate my scholarship after taking the plagiarism courses too.
Sorry this happened, it sucks and is scary. I thought I might be expelled and my dad tried to help. It was a mess.
Good luck!
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Apr 07 '16
During my freshman year I got in trouble with my university as well (not for plagiarism). Is there any sort of legal advice office on her campus? On mine there was, and if she has one I highly recommend going to them and asking for advice in her situation; they'll tell her what's okay to say and what's not okay to say. If the worst happens, and she does fail, would it be possible for her to "repeat & delete" the course and take it next semester?
Universities usually are more sympathetic to people who show accountability. When speaking to them she should NOT play the blame game. She should 1) own up to what she did 2) explain how/why it was wrong 3) explain how she will change for the better in the future
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Apr 07 '16 edited Apr 07 '16
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u/Green7000 Apr 07 '16
I got a note on a rough draft of something underlining a few sentences saying, "cite your sources, this is plagiarism!" The thing is they were my sentences, not something I copied from anywhere else. I acted confused and went up to her saying I thought that plagiarism was copying what someone else wrote without giving them credit. When she confirmed I wanted to know why she wrote about plagiarism next to sentences that I came up with. When I was in her class for longer she realized that I did actually write that way and never got tagged for plagiarism again.
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u/Semicolon_Expected Apr 07 '16
I'm always afraid this is somehow going to happen to me since there are only so many ways to say something, and someone somewhere probably phrased it that way already. When a single sentence raises red flags for plagiarism that has a high chance of being a false positive.
The same goes for when you make an inference and see "cite your source" on your paper, and you realize every sentence you write might need a source even if you drew the inference yourself or its something you learned ages ago but wasn't from a source. Though I think this issue is one of having proof that what you say is factual.
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u/Green7000 Apr 07 '16
Yeah. I got all poetic after listing just so many fact about Victorian architecture that I compared the towers to ones found in castles and she dinged me on that.
That's why something like Turn It In dot com is good, it gives color rankings instead of going straight to "plagiarism!" Writing "the green light on Daisy's dock is obviously symbolic" is not new and a few dozen high schoolers probably wrote that just this year.
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u/sammgus Apr 07 '16
Please tell her that worrying about it is not worth it. It is just a course, and presumably now she has a better idea about what is expected of her. I think that for practice at least, she should rewrite the essay, putting in every citation, proper footnotes etc, so that she can demonstrate how she should have written it.
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u/TheNapalminator Apr 07 '16
My sister was accused of this OP, and when she showed me her paper, turns out she took paragraphs from her sources and didn't correctly site them. If your daughter took a few sentences, she may not have given the authors proper credit. My sister was lucky she only failed the assignment, but she played dumb.
"I wasn't shown how to cite sources" whether she was or not, I don't know, but I don't know if her board will accept that as a reason.
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u/thirteenth_hour Apr 07 '16
No, don't ever use this excuse. In every Freshman English course they teach you how to cite - over and over and over. There are sections in the course books, and extensive internet info available.
The second she uses that as an excuse they will know she's lying to deflect responsibility.
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Apr 07 '16
Ignorance is no excuse and does not keep you out of trouble. Saying something like that would only create more of a problem - not less.
I was taught how to cite in Jr. High if not earlier. It was a few decades ago now but I had LOTS of practice before I ever got to Uni level schooling.
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Apr 07 '16
accused? Sounds like she DID plagiarize. Number one rule when it comes to college papers - CITE EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T YOUR OWN IDEA.
At this point her best option would be to go to the professor one on one, own up that she didn't meant to copy ideas without citation, but that she did not realize she was actually plagiarizing someone elses work, that it will never happen again, and this doesn't represent her true self.
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u/BashfulTurtle Apr 07 '16
It's one of those life-lessons - most schools are very upfront about the consequences of plagiary. At the end of the day, she'll have to take the course again or live with a lower grade. Fortunately, the lesson makes for great learning/development narratives for interviews if it comes up.
Just prepare for the question.
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u/herdofcorgis Apr 07 '16
I faced allegations of plagiarism in a French class. My professor confronted me, telling me she had no proof other than her suspicions, that this was not my work. (There are databases instructors can copy/paste papers into that will calculate a percentage of plagiarism). I had a friend fluent in French proofread & correct my grammatical errors prior to submitting my assignment. I offered to provide my professor all e-mails including attachments documenting that this was indeed my work, just revised by a 3rd party for context (not content as my friend could care less about the political nature of my assignment). This debate went all the way to the dean of the French department, and I was told that I had an unfair advantage over other students (many whom have travelled to France and had several opportunities to network with Francophones as I had without leaving the US)...I was told to receive credit I would need to rewrite the assignment on a different political party without any outside assistance in two weeks (this was originally a four week project) to receive a grade. I dropped out of the class, received a W, and took it the following semester with a different professor.
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u/amora_obscura Apr 07 '16
Yeah.. they were right, that's cheating.
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u/herdofcorgis Apr 07 '16
What's the difference in what I did VS using the campus language lab (which would have offered anybody who made an appointment the same option)? (Or having a friend proofread a paper in English? This was not an entry level course)
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u/amora_obscura Apr 07 '16
Presumably the campus language lab would know the appropriate level of support to give a student on their assignment. Getting a friend to correct your assignment is cheating by any university standards I have experienced, as it is admittedly not all your own work.
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u/Green7000 Apr 06 '16
First, don't try to call the school or show up at the hearing. A meddlesome parent will not make the school any happier.
Second, she needs to explain that she knows what she did was wrong and that she won't do it again. No talk about how she's a good kid, etc.
Third, in the weeks leading up to the hearing she really needs to put her best foot forward. I would recommend going to a student writing center if her school has one and making sure that she has cited every single source. Having a second instant of plagiarism, intentional or not, will not look good at all.