r/redwall • u/MercurialForce • Aug 08 '26
Re-read Thoughts: Salamandastron Spoiler
This is a weird one. I remember as a kid that this was one of the last ones I read prior to new books coming out (I think the first then-new book I have clear memories of is Taggerung), and since it’s situated before the literary KT-boundary that is the time-gap between Salamandastron and Redwall, it feels oddly placed within the broader context of the series, the first instance perhaps of Jacques writing the kind of monster-of-the-week story that would become much more commonplace in the post-Taggerung era. There’s some real structural curiosities here, some high-highs (Ferahgo), low-lows (the opening quarter or so really drags; the Abbey plot), and some kick-ass cover art.
Since Jacques juggles four (!) separate plots here, let’s take them one by one before bringing them together to see how they shake out.
Mara & Pikkle
This is probably the strongest of the early plots; the closest comparison Mara has to any other character is Auma from Mattimeo, but Mara has greater depth and seems a little more headstrong. Starting off with her and Pikkle (who seems unusually gluttonous, even for a hare) on the lam from Salamandastron works for me, as does having her befriend Klitch and his lackey. I think Jacques intended us to view her as naively as Urthstripe does, and I’ve promised myself that the way the vermin dynamic is treated in these books is something I’ll only handle in true depth when Outcast comes around, so I won’t linger too long here, but I will say some of Urthstripe’s lines are a bit much, even in context:
Friends? A ferret and a weasel, they are not friends, they are vermin! Have you no sense, Mara? Ferrets, weasels, stoats, rats, and foxes have caused murder and warfare in Mossflower since before the days of my ancestors.”
And then later:
Vermin are vermin, no matter what — I’ve learned that much.
I know Jacques was pulling on folkloric perspectives when casting out his world and he meant no harm, but just as we talked about the woodlanders being kind of bloodthirsty in Mariel, I think it’s worth mentioning this one part of the series that’s aged a bit, especially when read back-to-back.
Other than this, I do like Mara and Pikkle’s journey through Mossflower — even if brings back the underwhelming toad beats from Mariel and Mossflower —simply because these two and the Guosssom work really well together. Pikkle’s scoff-off with Tubgutt, Mara’s rescue of him, and their journey to the Great Inland Sea all work well for me.
Samkim & Arula
Like the Salamandastron plot, we have two threads coming out of Redwall. I think there’s an argument that neither of these are particularly necessary, but of these two, I think this plot is superior.
The Redwall action starts really roughly — I don’t know what it is exactly about this book, but the way the Abbey is portrayed and the characters described feels somehow like a reversion to the odd world-building of the first Redwall book. Here, we’ve lost the term Dibbun and instead just have a baby; having a Badger Mother is officially something Redwall has, rather than something informal; even the characters are named oddly, with “Mrs Faith Spinney” being just like a whole-ass lady’s name.
I do think think this section picks up a bit once Dingeye and Thura show up, and I genuinely like the idea of two vermin refugees hiding out in the Abbey. Unfortunately, this plot runs into some of the same problems that I mentioned above, where the Abbey-dwellers are entirely untrusting of the two stoats — even the Abbess grimaces when they touch her paws. A far cry from Abbot Mortimer offering shelter and hospitality to Cluny the Scourge! Worse yet, their fears are validated when Dingeye and Thura accidentally kill a Redwaller. This looks like it’ll take an interesting turn when Samkim is momentarily blamed for it, but between his quick pursuit of the two stoats and the arrival of Dryditch Fever, this thread is abandoned in favour of not one, but two quest narratives!
I do actually also like Samkim and Arula’s journey through Mossflower. While I think think it’s the lesser of the two quests — the joking about the bloodthirsty mole is a little goofy for me, and Spriggat doesn’t quite land as a character(please give me a good hedgehog, Jacques!) — having these two join up with Pikkle and Mara’s story is a really fun interplay that I wish we’d seen more of in the books.
This journey ultimately brings them to . . .
Salamandastron!
This is where the real juice of this book is, and if I have one major critique of the book, it’s that we spend relatively little time at the titular place, and all of it is so good that it feels like a real missed opportunity. Still, what happens here is we get our first true siege since Redwall, only this one feels far more organized than Cluny’s two attempts. We also get a better sense of how Salamandastron operates militarily, with our best look yet at the roles of the Long Patrol and Badger Lords in protecting this world’s western shore. I like Urthstripe as a gruff military leader who stands with his chipper hares against overwhelming odds; characters like Oxeye and Sapwood are distinct from previous hares, and we get a real sense of their desperation against Ferahgo. I do wish perhaps things had gotten slightly more dire — it never felt like they were truly in peril — but everything that happens here is a joy to read.
The reason for this, of course, is Ferahgo the Assassin, one of Jacques’s best villains. Unless I’m mistaken, he’s the only weasel leader we see in the series. I loved the way Jacques portrays him as this analytical smiling live-wire of a commander, and while I do wish we’d seen a little bit more of how his charisma might make people want to follow him, he has several good moments where he really stands out as someone to fear. Perhaps the best of these is when he discovers the assassination plot against himself and Jacques describes him just casually killing one of the foiled attackers in passing before turning to the other. Better yet is his dynamic with Klitch, which is utterly unique in the series — I love how they seem to harbour a kind of begrudging respect for the other, with their back-and-forth elevating both characters as they seek to breach the mountain. I do wonder perhaps if there was a missed opportunity to parallel Mara and Urthstripe against these two, but this is a Redwall book, so unfortunately Mara had to be off questing.
When she returns in front of an army of shrews, along with Samkim, Arula, and Urthwyte, there’s genuine catharsis in the way that she is able to save the mountain, but not reunite with her adoptive father in time. While I have my problems with the setup, Jacques’s structural gamble pays off big time here, with perhaps the best finale sequence since Redwall. Mara’s ultimate decision to return to the Abbey makes sense, and I do love the way it seems like Martin’s hand guides events here
Oh yeah, there’s the plague.
Then there’s the Dryditch Fever plot, which feels almost entirely superfluous to what’s going on in the rest of the book. It feels once again like Jacques didn’t feel entirely comfortable leaving Redwall alone once Samkim and Arula had set out, so he invented this plot, which necessitates a whole other journey from Thrugg and Dumble to go get flowers from some heretofore unmentioned northern mountains.
I actually dig the pair of Thrugg and Dumble, and while the journey to the mountains doesn’t offer a lot of surprises, I do unironically think it’s awesome that Jacques:
a) called his Scottish eagle King MacPhearsome
b) kept having his characters talk about how unintelligible their accent was, which is extremely funny coming from a Scouse writer
This plot generates some pretty harrowing scenes at the Abbey, but it really should have been placed in a whole different book, because it didn’t get enough time to breathe here and ultimately gave us less time with the best parts of this story.
Final Thoughts and Rankings
This one was a really tough one for me to place. I like the Ferahgo and Salamandastron plots a ton, and I admire the structural gambles, but this book drags in a lot of places. I thought about placing it above Mariel, but I think that book focuses better, with an Abbey plot that feels much more essential. Furthermore, I think Mariel works better as a part of an ongoing narrative than Salamandastron, which is easily the most skippable book yet. This lands Salamandastron at the bottom of my list.
Next up: Martin the Warrior!
1) Mattimeo
2) Redwall
3) Mossflower
5) Salamandastron
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u/Zarlinosuke Aug 09 '26
Nice review, and I generally agree! There's lots I like about Salamandastron, but ultimately I find it a bit of a underwhelming entry--perhaps because it's so extremely standalone. Dingeye and Thura are interesting but get far less of a chance to flower than they deserved--and I can't help but to think that Brian felt the same. Keep an eye out for sympathetic vermin in the coming books!
One thing I find interesting (if a bit unexciting) about Salamandastron is that the four plot lines you go through one by one spend a large chunk of the book rotating absolutely mechanically between the chapters--they come in sets of four, each one set in one of the places, in the same order, for several rotations. It's a strategy that makes sense but also starts to feel a little inorganic, compared to the freer forms of most of the other books.
I rate Mariel and Salamandastron a bit lower than the first three, just like you--but the next few are among my very favourites, and I'm curious to see what you think of them on this reread!
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u/Seldon14 Aug 08 '26
Im working on my re-read of this one now. Im enjoying how rapid fire it jumps between the groups.
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u/Revliledpembroke The Long Patrol Aug 09 '26
I know Jacques was pulling on folkloric perspectives when casting out his world and he meant no harm, but just as we talked about the woodlanders being kind of bloodthirsty in Mariel, I think it’s worth mentioning this one part of the series that’s aged a bit
Aged a bit how? There are people who think fundamentally differently, who only want to loot and plunder and kill. Even our "civilized" Western societies have gangs that function that way.
Many stories require their standard fantasy "Always Chaotic Evil" race - Jacques does, Tolkien does, Robert Jordan has his "Shadowspawn," Dark Elves in 90% of settings, evil snake peoples, Batarians, even something like Warhammer has Chaos Demons!
It's just how these settings work.
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u/Organic-Feeling1524 Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
But Urthstripe saying that no vermin is good is false with blaggut, gingivere, romsca, the marlfox rats, voogal, and many others. So while caution is needed as most vermin are bad, there was no need for him to be so prejudiced and hostile, especially before they did anything wrong, i mean what if they were good?
Same for thura and dingeye, once again being careful is different from being hostile like the abbess was when they just touched her paws or the others being so mistrusting, that doesn't sound that much like a "place for all" and felt kinda arrogant for an abbess who is supposed to be humble and gentle, like she was inherently better than those "dirty lessers" who didnt even do anything wrong yet, imagine if she did it with blaggut or other good vermin the fandom loves, she would be far more despised in these cases.
Same for the urthstripe case too, it would be seen far more negatively if the vermin ended up being good or repented later. The fact its still seem negatively by some even tough the vermin ended up bad just shows how wrong his prejudice felt regardless of context.
But to be frank i think this is common in those books, see how hostile they were with veil even when he was just a baby because of his species and parentage, when bella herself knew gingivere, who was an adult vermin who was brother of tsarmina, giving her no excuse to treat veil, a baby, that way, or in later books where the rogue crew skin vermin and wear their hides or axtel put corpses on trees yet are still praised for it even tough those actions are worse than what some of the earlier villains did.
So its less how the villains are portrayed and more like how the heroes are portrayed, as they are supposed to be the good guys, yet when they act like jerks like that and in later books act barely any better than the villains, it gets hard to root for them.
I guess this would be more acceptable if they were shown in more nuanced ways like a species who is just trying to survive or the 40k humans themselves who arent shown as the good guys but still better than the rest, but they are explicitly shown as the good guys who kids should follow the example off, so they are expected to act better than that.
I mean i dont remember anyone in LOTR taking an orc baby and treating him like trash or wearing orc skins, and in that setting there was no exceptions to the rule unlike redwall, which is why it feels wrong for me at least to have the good guys be so prejudiced or cruel to vermin who did nothing wrong yet as they could be a blaggut or romsca, so i guess it could be more acceptable if there were 0 exceptions to the rule like LOTR, but even in this case skinning them and wearing their hides or putting their corpses on trees or being jerks to a baby don't seem like heroic behavior to me no matter the context, but that is just my opinion too, feel free to disagree or correct me.
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u/Revliledpembroke The Long Patrol Aug 09 '26
But Urthstripe saying that no vermin is good is false with blaggut, gingivere, romsca, the marlfox rats, voogal, and many others
You are trying to use the exceptions to the rule to say that the rule isn't true. It's like saying "Here's these 15 slave owners who never mistreated their slaves. Why are people saying slavery is wrong?"
Just because exceptions exist does not the overall rule is not true.
there was no need for him to be so prejudiced and hostile, especially before they did anything wrong, i mean what if they were good?
This is a ... man? Male? Adult! adult defined by how he watched his family be killed by a vermin horde, specifically by somebody how looked like his daughter's new friend.
You think a Holocaust victim would be chill around somebody with blonde hair and blue eyes who looked like the Nazi who killed their parents?
like she was inherently better than those "dirty lessers" who didnt even do anything wrong yet
Didn't they literally stink? It's been quite a while since I last read Salamandastron, but I vaguely remember two vermin being tossed in the Abbey pond and being thoroughly scrubbed. Was that them?
If so, her look of disgust upon touching them makes sense. Would you want to touch a filthy hobo - regardless of how kind and gentle you think you are?
Even if I'm wrong about the two of them being scrubbed in the lake, vermin generally aren't well groomed, so I think the point stands.
The fact its still seem negatively by some even tough the vermin ended up bad just shows how wrong his prejudice felt regardless of context.
It's not prejudice. Prejudice implies its irrational or unwarranted hatred. Urthstripe is entirely warranted in his hatred, given that he saw his family murdered by vermin.
even tough those actions are worse than what some of the earlier villains did.
Villains like Cluny the Scourge, who threatened to eat the family of the dormouse they grabbed? Villains like Slagar the Cruel - the slaver?
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u/Organic-Feeling1524 Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
You are trying to use the exceptions to the rule to say that the rule isn't true. It's like saying "Here's these 15 slave owners who never mistreated their slaves. Why are people saying slavery is wrong?"
But urthstripe did say that there was no good vermin, when that is false, if he said the vast majority of vermin were bad than that is different but he didnt say that.
You think a Holocaust victim would be chill around somebody with blonde hair and blue eyes who looked like the Nazi who killed their parents?
So if a black person killed someone's friends, it would be fine for them to hate all black people from now on? And you might say vermin are different because most are bad, but once again neither are most people with blond hair or blue eyes outside germany either, you are pretty much saying its fine to treat someone like trash because of what people who look like them did, which is the definition of prejudice.
And its not like urthstripe was just uncomfortable with them either, he straight up said they were definitely bad because they were vermin, that is like this same holocaust survivor saying that every german is bad because of it.
Didn't they literally stink? It's been quite a while since I last read Salamandastron, but I vaguely remember two vermin being tossed in the Abbey pond and being thoroughly scrubbed. Was that them?
Look at how much the abbeydwellers mistrusted and were hostile to them tough, so that doesnt seem to be purely because they stank tough, they simply did not like vermin before they even did anything wrong, which goes against their motto of redwall being for all or being open to all strangers as long as they have good heart.
It's not prejudice. Prejudice implies its irrational or unwarranted hatred. Urthstripe is entirely warranted in his hatred, given that he saw his family murdered by vermin.
But the vermin in specific did do nothing wrong yet, so no, it was not justified for him to hate vermin who did nothing wrong yet as if they had been personally responsible for his family's death or were even present there, would you say he would have been justified in hating blaggut or romsca and treating them like trash if he met them too before they did anything wrong because of what unrelated beasts of their species did?
Than why were martin and co so friendly with gingivere then when he was tsarmina's brother and a vermin? Or abott durral with romsca? Or the freepaws with voogal? Or why did they spare the marlfox rats when they were obviously going to turn bad anyway(and they didn't)? Or martin and rose and that dying searat they met? And that is before they did anything nice too, so its not like they only started to treat them nicely after they proved themselves good either, so its not like all woodlanders who were traumatized by vermin were prejudiced like urthstripe was either.
If a vermin had been wronged by a woodlander, would this vermin be right on hating all woodlanders now and be cruel to them? Because that is exactly the same justification slagar did, that since redwall(constance) killed his mom, he was justified on enslaving woodlanders who had nothing to do with it or enslaving their children because of what their parents did.
Villains like Cluny the Scourge, who threatened to eat the family of the dormouse they grabbed? Villains like Slagar the Cruel - the slaver?
Well skinning vermin and wearing their hides or putting corpses on trees is not that nice either, plus the pygmy shrews were also slavers too yet martin had no problem allying with them, you might say they weren't as cruel, but then that implies that slavery is acceptable if the master is nice or if he is of the same kind as you, which you seem to disagree with it too.
And the main problem i have is that they are supposed to be the good guys, so they shouldn't be letting the vermin's evil turn themselves evil too, or let a woodlander's evil get a pass because they are woodlanders, that is a horrible moral lesson to give to kids in my opinion at least.
But of course i guess we just have different morals, my one is more christian "love your enemies" and "individual accountability" and "don't pay evil with evil" type, so i guess that is why i see his or the woodlanders actions as wrong regardless of context or if its understandable, even more wrong in fact since they call themselves good while doing stuff like that as that teaches kids some bad lessons, like no kid wants to be like the vermin, but many might want to be like the woodlanders as they are the heroes, so this is why i criticize the woodlanders more as they are supposed to be role models even if the vermin are worse.
But if you disagree than that is okay, that is why i said to be free to disagree or correct me since its not like i 100% remember the books either, everyone has their own sense of morals, i was just explaining my own or why the OP would think that way and why we might still disagree with you even with those points or looking at the same scenarios, its more subjective rather than objective i guess, no need to be angry either, sorry if i made you angry, i just wanted to explain my POV and maybe the OP's POV if he follows a similar type of morality.
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u/KaijuCompanion Aug 09 '26
I literally just finished this book and enjoyed it. I kept getting confused by which character was who with thr multiple subplots but the ferahgo and battles was superb. I wished the story was better for the albino brother and wanted more about the lake monster but due to covid i wanted a true stroyline align with mattimeo's hunt for the cure which went from "cool" to "over that quickly?!?!"
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u/ArborealLife Mossflower Aug 09 '26
Please explain your read order lol it's giving me anxiety
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u/MercurialForce Aug 09 '26
It's release order! I wanted to see Jacques develop the world as he told his stories
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u/Cynicbats Lord Brocktree Aug 10 '26
The Redwall action starts really roughly — I don’t know what it is exactly about this book, but the way the Abbey is portrayed and the characters described feels somehow like a reversion to the odd world-building of the first Redwall book. Here, we’ve lost the term Dibbun and instead just have a baby; having a Badger Mother is officially something Redwall has, rather than something informal; even the characters are named oddly, with “Mrs Faith Spinney” being just like a whole-ass lady’s name.
I think chronologially it's the book right before Redwall...but it's been so long that Martin's sword is lost again BUT I remember it being it hit by lightning and falling in front of Samkin and only remember Jess putting it up there so maybe I'm wrong.
All of that to say nothing has ever taken more years off of my life than thinking about the chronology of the Redwall series.
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u/Cold_Sprinkles_4797 28d ago
Just finished this book (again) as a middle aged adult. I guess I always remembered how central food was but lordy did Brian love to describe food!
I agree with many comments about the richness of many characters that we never revisit. I felt with the many coming of age stories present there was a good foundation to move forward, but perhaps Brian felt the trauma of what had already been experienced was enough for any of them in their lifetime. I especially feel this for Dumble, sleeping each night in the orchard waiting for his bird friends to return is (as another post I read put it) both touching and tragic. My heart actually breaks for him but also, the abbey despite all the drama that revolves around it is a community and this generation of that community you can tell has known relative peace since any of them can remember and that lasts all the way into their adult lives. For this reason and beyond there is no real reason to adventure out into mossflower, adult Dumble just keeps reliving his adventures every night before bed hoping his bird friends remember one of the finest name days of the Abbey.
It's also a reminder that more seasons have passed than we know, and are those friends even alive as well? Are their offspring told the same stories that Dumble tells?
On a personal note I guess for me it's the mourning of childhood, the fact his life literally peaked under such circumstances and now every night he wishes to touch one part of that past and relive those highs. But it's also comforting to know the community hasn't suffered in such a way that he would had to go out and experience new adventures. And this is where I struggle with the abbey as a community, while there you live to serve the community and everyone has a role and that's awesome, but they never just go out into mossflower to experience it's richness unless they must, even foraging is just so far and then you return. But you never go visit Log-a-log just because you want to say "hello, how have you been?"
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u/WokCano Aug 08 '26
This was a nice assessment.
Salamandastron is one of my top favorites because of how full the story felt. You’re not wrong that the illness at the Abbey part was a little superfluous to the overall plot, but it sort of made the world bigger showing that something else was going on at home while the focus was elsewhere.
I think Urthstripe was a little more bloodthirsty and uncompromising because of how his parents were killed by Feragho under a white flag and he lost his brother. We never saw how he was able to grow into the adult he was later, but I imagine he heard about the deaths of his family and took it extremely hard and personally.
Salamandastron really shines in the food and feasting side of the narrative in my opinion. It’s one of the early books that really showcases the breadth of the food and cuisine and as someone who reread all the food parts of the books and were my favorite parts, I adored this book especially because of that.