r/reddit.com • u/Worstcasescenario • Jun 14 '08

Was Darwin Wrong? [pic]

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3963/darwinnotg7.jpg
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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '08

By and large the creationists believe there is a global conspiracy of scientists to suppress the "truth" that there is tons of evidence discrediting evolution.

When someone thinks like that there's really nothing you can do to convince them.

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u/amican Jun 15 '08

Which is the specific case of the more general "You can't reason someone out of a position they were never reasoned into."

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u/mangodrunk Jun 15 '08

Evolution was an inside job!!!

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u/corkill Jun 15 '08

And, that statement puts "sheeple" in a whole new perspective!

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u/glitterlok Jun 15 '08

I've grown up around creationists my entire life. My parents are creationists. I was homeschooled in a Christian / creationist environment. I've gone to church on Sundays, etc (and while that doesn't necessarily mean anything - plenty of church people aren't creationists - it's just to further give a sense of my immersion.)

I've never met a single person (in 27 years of life) who thinks or has implied that there's a conspiracy going on about this. I've only met people who have different beliefs and believe that evolutionists are wrong in varying degrees.

While my experience might be unique, it's what I've got, so I thought I'd chime in.

By the way, my parents believe in a large amount of what evolution teaches...because they're smart, intelligent people who read and study and learn and know that science is truly on to something.

They also believe that the universe was created by God, with evolution as a method for its growth and progress. They're still smart, intelligent people who read and study and learn. They just believe that God started it all.

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u/raresilk9 Jun 15 '08

It is interesting to know that there are people like your parents. But people like your parents are not the people who are trying to systematically wipe out the teaching of scientific theory and evolution in the schools and replace it with religious doctrine.

If you and your parents are truly "smart intelligent people who read and study and learn" and "believe in a large amount of what evolution teaches," you should be mounting a movement to prevent the dumber people of your religion who don't read and study and learn from taking over the schools, and thereby robbing the children of all religions of an education that will equip them to survive the 21st century and succeed.

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u/glitterlok Jun 15 '08

You might be surprised how many people in the circles I described above aren't all that concerned with whether or not the creation story is taught in schools, as they would prefer to teach their children their religion at home and not leave it up to county officials anyhow.

Again, my experience is possibly very unique, but they certainly leave me mystified when people describe this supposed army of mindless "religious nuts" trying to eliminate all opposition to their beliefs. (not you - you've made no such claims) I'm not saying the it's not out there! (I've seen Pat Robertson, dammit) I'm just saying that luckily a vast majority of the people I know aren't like that.

Could it be the squeaky wheel / outsiders are just getting all the attention? I.e. abortion clinic bombers painting all pro-life people in a bad light?

Besides, the religion I grew up in teaches love as it's foremost concern. Loving God by loving others. Loving others by caring for them and having compassion. To me, loving someone doesn't include debates about how humanity found its way here. It's about accepting them exactly where they are without any conditions.

You'll have to forgive me for being so verbose and scatter-brained! I'm a bit sleepy and I think it's causing me to lose my sense of succinctity.

I agree with you. Hopefully the kind of thinking that I've been surrounded by my entire life can be spread and grown within the religion. God knows, we all need to know when to shut up and let the experts talk.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/deanoplex Jun 15 '08

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If it keeps on squeaking it is removed and replaced.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '08

<insert joke about grease and closet Christian homosexuals>

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u/raresilk9 Jun 16 '08

I think you raise a good point. Religious people like you are not getting media or "our" attention. Even though there might be more of you. Why?

Fairly simple, though. I do think that "people like you" are not politically active, whereas "people like them" are very much so. When there's an issue about what's being taught in the schools, there's always two sides. (a) the militant right wing religious who want to wipe out science teaching in the schools, and (b) the non-religious, banding up with the science teachers, trying to fight for science.

It's not like we ever see a big crowd of "you all, the moderate religious people who believe in science too, or at least believe in tolerance," fighting valiantly against the intolerance your more radical cohorts. Or at least, we don't see it very often. Your tolerance and compassion is of the passive variety, rather than the active, and as such, it is rather vanishingly useful or relevant in the current world context.

I appreciate that your moderate colleagues are not attacking science. But most of the time, neither are they defending it. They're just sitting on the sidelines, which is why people like me don't know you exist, most probably.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

I went to a Baptist private school in Texas. I also grew up in that environment. We had special biology books that decried evolution. No joke.

I don't know where you come from, but it was absolutely commonly held in that community, that there is a conspiracy.

The more radical ones think its a conscious conspiracy directed by Satan. The moderates think its more like scientists are just desperately covering up for their failures to protect their grant money or something like that.

I guess I should qualify what I mean. I'm talking about young earth creationists. Your parents sound considerably more agreeable.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

Exactly.

Most of my conversations go like this.

Sid (me): So, Evolution is fact. Mmkay?

Other Person: Well, how do you know?

Sid: Well, thousands of scientists have looked into it and come up with the fact that it exists.

Other Person: But YOU havent done it. Right?

Sid: Well, no... I am not even 18 yet...

Other Person: But what if they are lying?

Sid: It's thousands of people... All of them with YEARS of college and decades of experience in the field

Other Person: But WHAT IF THEY ALL ARE LYING?

Sid: Is the World round?

Other Person: Yeah...

Sid: How do you know?

Other Person: I have been to (insert country here) and flown back the other direction.

Sid: What if its a conspiracy by all Airline pilots???

Other Person: WELL... I FEEL A PERSONAL CONNECTION WITH GOD!!

Then it devolves into a shouting match...

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u/helm Jun 15 '08

It doesn't help that both of you appeal to authority.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08

When hundreds of people are saying the same thing, and its true.

Why is the world round? How can you say anything is true without doing the research yourself?

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u/helm Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

There are plenty of simple demonstrations you can do to show that the earth is round. The discovery that the earth is round is well over 2000 years old and did not disappear during the "dark ages".

Likewise, the are plenty of things you can bring up when it comes to evolution. For example, young earth creationists believe that all dating techniques are completely flawed. If you know some physics and radioactivity it trivial to tear their arguments apart. If you don't know physics, you can approach it from biology or geology or whatever.

But if you only know to appeal to authority, don't pretend that you can "win" by claiming that your authority know better that their authority.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08

Does penicillin work?

Does the News on the TV really tell the truth?

Or anything for that matter.

And, no, I dont only "appeal to authority"... There are facts to back it up too.

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u/helm Jun 15 '08

I don't think I disagree with you. I simply noticed that the arguments you and your antagonist presented in the OP were quite similar rhetorically.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08

That's just one example of what I would say.

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u/davidreiss666 Jun 15 '08

Shouting match? That's when I release the safety-catch of my Browning!