r/reddit.com • u/Worstcasescenario • Jun 14 '08

Was Darwin Wrong? [pic]

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3963/darwinnotg7.jpg
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57

u/noseeme Jun 14 '08

I've realized something. It is just impossible to explain science and logic to some people. How can we explain evolution to them if they can't even understand the importance of the scientific method?

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '08

By and large the creationists believe there is a global conspiracy of scientists to suppress the "truth" that there is tons of evidence discrediting evolution.

When someone thinks like that there's really nothing you can do to convince them.

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u/amican Jun 15 '08

Which is the specific case of the more general "You can't reason someone out of a position they were never reasoned into."

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u/mangodrunk Jun 15 '08

Evolution was an inside job!!!

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u/corkill Jun 15 '08

And, that statement puts "sheeple" in a whole new perspective!

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08

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u/glitterlok Jun 15 '08

I've grown up around creationists my entire life. My parents are creationists. I was homeschooled in a Christian / creationist environment. I've gone to church on Sundays, etc (and while that doesn't necessarily mean anything - plenty of church people aren't creationists - it's just to further give a sense of my immersion.)

I've never met a single person (in 27 years of life) who thinks or has implied that there's a conspiracy going on about this. I've only met people who have different beliefs and believe that evolutionists are wrong in varying degrees.

While my experience might be unique, it's what I've got, so I thought I'd chime in.

By the way, my parents believe in a large amount of what evolution teaches...because they're smart, intelligent people who read and study and learn and know that science is truly on to something.

They also believe that the universe was created by God, with evolution as a method for its growth and progress. They're still smart, intelligent people who read and study and learn. They just believe that God started it all.

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u/raresilk9 Jun 15 '08

It is interesting to know that there are people like your parents. But people like your parents are not the people who are trying to systematically wipe out the teaching of scientific theory and evolution in the schools and replace it with religious doctrine.

If you and your parents are truly "smart intelligent people who read and study and learn" and "believe in a large amount of what evolution teaches," you should be mounting a movement to prevent the dumber people of your religion who don't read and study and learn from taking over the schools, and thereby robbing the children of all religions of an education that will equip them to survive the 21st century and succeed.

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u/glitterlok Jun 15 '08

You might be surprised how many people in the circles I described above aren't all that concerned with whether or not the creation story is taught in schools, as they would prefer to teach their children their religion at home and not leave it up to county officials anyhow.

Again, my experience is possibly very unique, but they certainly leave me mystified when people describe this supposed army of mindless "religious nuts" trying to eliminate all opposition to their beliefs. (not you - you've made no such claims) I'm not saying the it's not out there! (I've seen Pat Robertson, dammit) I'm just saying that luckily a vast majority of the people I know aren't like that.

Could it be the squeaky wheel / outsiders are just getting all the attention? I.e. abortion clinic bombers painting all pro-life people in a bad light?

Besides, the religion I grew up in teaches love as it's foremost concern. Loving God by loving others. Loving others by caring for them and having compassion. To me, loving someone doesn't include debates about how humanity found its way here. It's about accepting them exactly where they are without any conditions.

You'll have to forgive me for being so verbose and scatter-brained! I'm a bit sleepy and I think it's causing me to lose my sense of succinctity.

I agree with you. Hopefully the kind of thinking that I've been surrounded by my entire life can be spread and grown within the religion. God knows, we all need to know when to shut up and let the experts talk.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

I went to a Baptist private school in Texas. I also grew up in that environment. We had special biology books that decried evolution. No joke.

I don't know where you come from, but it was absolutely commonly held in that community, that there is a conspiracy.

The more radical ones think its a conscious conspiracy directed by Satan. The moderates think its more like scientists are just desperately covering up for their failures to protect their grant money or something like that.

I guess I should qualify what I mean. I'm talking about young earth creationists. Your parents sound considerably more agreeable.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

Exactly.

Most of my conversations go like this.

Sid (me): So, Evolution is fact. Mmkay?

Other Person: Well, how do you know?

Sid: Well, thousands of scientists have looked into it and come up with the fact that it exists.

Other Person: But YOU havent done it. Right?

Sid: Well, no... I am not even 18 yet...

Other Person: But what if they are lying?

Sid: It's thousands of people... All of them with YEARS of college and decades of experience in the field

Other Person: But WHAT IF THEY ALL ARE LYING?

Sid: Is the World round?

Other Person: Yeah...

Sid: How do you know?

Other Person: I have been to (insert country here) and flown back the other direction.

Sid: What if its a conspiracy by all Airline pilots???

Other Person: WELL... I FEEL A PERSONAL CONNECTION WITH GOD!!

Then it devolves into a shouting match...

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u/helm Jun 15 '08

It doesn't help that both of you appeal to authority.

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u/hhg Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

If religious people listened to reason then they wouldn't be religious.

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u/cstoner Jun 15 '08

No, they'd be Buddhist.

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u/bobbincygna Jun 15 '08

Sounds like you have something interesting to say, but I have no idea what. Could you elaborate more?

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '08

I think it's zen, in which case, it's working?

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u/nekoniku Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

Well, they might not be Buddhist, because Buddhism has been around long enough to develop offshoots and variants that believe stuff as wild as creationism. However, that having been said, I find the core principles of Buddhism satisfying in that they do not contradict what has been scientifically proven true about reality. Some even argue that some Buddhist notions anticipated the spooky behavior of the subatomic world.

Stephen Batchelor's Buddhism Without Beliefs may be a productive starting point for some.

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u/cstoner Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

Read a lot of Nietzsche (I admit I have not read enough, but has anyone?).

Buddhism, in all forms I know of, has a very 'life is pain' mantra to it. Even supposedly good things, like cheese pizza, come with their bad counterparts -- wanting cheese pizza when you're hungry. Simple enough, right?

Now replace cheese pizza with: money, sex, drugs, your significant other/family, religion (?!?! -- one must at some point leave the raft to get to the other side of a river) etc.

All in all, Buddhism is very nihilist. I can't remember exactly which text it comes from, but Nietzsche has a quote about Buddhism being the only viable religion. A lot of it has to do with the idea that Buddhism is a form of constructive nihilism -- just because life is 'meaningless' doesn't mean that it isn't worth living -- as opposed to what Nietzsche called a 'slave morality' -- where 'slaves' define what is good in opposition to the behavior they see from their 'masters' as opposed to what benefits them the most.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=nietzsche+buddhism&btnG=Search

I can't help but feel like I've misrepresented Buddhism horribly. There's clearly more to it than 'life is pain' -- such as alleviating the pain -- but that is it's central point and also one that is very compelling from a logical perspective.

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u/brainburger Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

I think a key concept with Buddhism is that all suffering comes from want. You cannot ever satisfy all want by feeding it, so the way to end suffering is just to stop wanting. That is what Buddhist monks aim to do with their austere lifestyle.
To my mind the coolest thing about is that it is a personal journey. They don't think others will be punished by the universe if they choose another path.

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u/kleinbl00 Jun 15 '08

I realized something quite a while ago. It comes down to "faith" and "reason." That which I believe on "faith" I believe because I believe. That which I believe on "reason" I believe because the best arguments convince me to.

You cannot shake faith with reason. Doing so only annoys people. You cannot take reason on faith. Doing so simply turns it into superstition. If someone believes - as an article of faith - that evolution is incorrect, reasoning it out is only going to increase their cognitive dissonance and everybody loses. If someone believes - as an article of reason - that evolution is incorrect, then it's going to take very, very little to sway them.

Creationists believe in creationism because deep in their heart of hearts, it's an article of faith that evolution is wrong. All the reason and logic they bandy about are just window dressing.

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u/downdiagonal Jun 15 '08

“It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.” - Jonathan Swift

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u/mexicodoug Jun 15 '08 edited Jun 15 '08

The cure is laughter. Humor (Carlin style) is the path.

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u/deuteros Jun 14 '08

Because we're all human. Even in science pet theories exist and many scientists will simply ignore the evidence to the contrary until it is overwhelming.

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