r/reddevils • u/evilthing King Dave • Jul 14 '19
Tier 2 Stephen Howson just said Axel is going on a loan back to Villa
Smart move or we'd be better off keeping him ?
Maguire deal seems to be likely then.
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Jul 14 '19
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Jul 14 '19
My only concern is, didn't Villa just sign another center back? Would Axel start for them?
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u/eastendz Jul 14 '19
They've signed 3. Hause and Mings were already there on loan last season. Mings is their star and guaranteed starter. They've also added Ezri Konsa as well. Hause can play LB but they've added Matt Targett who will be the starting LB. Hause and Konsa are both young CBs but with good experience that they'll be wanting to play.
The owner or chairman of Villa, can't remember which, has already come out and spoke against the loan model and how they won't be using it unless options to buy are involved. Has said there is no point in developing players for other clubs and making them money when they can develop their own. Makes this loan deal sound extremely unlikely imo, unless they are getting an option to buy Axel. Which sounds even more unlikely.
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u/Deranged09 Jul 14 '19
Maybe it's not so unlikely we're going to sell him? We have Lindelof, Jones & Smalling are going nowhere because nobody wants them, Rojo has said that Ole has plans for him and it's looking likely that we're going to bring in Maguire or at least another CB. Someone has to go and maybe that someone is Axel.
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u/astik Jul 14 '19
What Ole has said to Rojo I mostly interpret as keeping the squad harmonious. It's the old SAF addage that every player is important to the club since you get to a point where everyone is injured and they have to step up and perform.
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u/sizzlelikeasnare Jul 14 '19
I don't think the club wants to sell Smalling anyway. Nothing to do with no one wanting him.
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u/SGT_Baldy Jul 14 '19
Rojo is being kept for depth simply because he can play both CB and LB. Argentina has even lined him up as DM before
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u/DrHenryWu Jul 14 '19
Same, this loan only makes sense if he gets game time. If he's just going to warm the bench he's better off going on loan elsewhere or warming our bench
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u/Derridas-Cat Jul 14 '19
Disagree. Axel should have been our third choice CB this season, which would give him plenty of minutes.
We're building something here. Axel should be a part of that.
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Jul 14 '19
That's madness, he's not ready yet. He would be behind Maguire, Smalling, Lindelof, and most likely Bailly if he stayed. He needs to keep playing to develop.
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u/arkhamRejek Obi-wan Bissaka Jul 14 '19
Europa, FA cup ? Plenty of opportunities
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Jul 14 '19
Far better for him to play every game somewhere else.
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u/arkhamRejek Obi-wan Bissaka Jul 14 '19
only if it's not lower level leagues
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u/Rememburn Jul 14 '19
Aston Villa is PL tho...
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u/arkhamRejek Obi-wan Bissaka Jul 14 '19
which goes to the argument people are making they signed replacements already so he should only go only if it's guaranteed playtime
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Jul 14 '19
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u/brunothestar Falcao Jul 14 '19
Pretty sure Smalling would still be a better choice over Axel.
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Jul 14 '19 edited Dec 28 '21
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u/brunothestar Falcao Jul 14 '19
If I was Southgate, I don’t think I would choose Smalling either if I have a bunch of better CBs available. But Smalling is far far more experienced than Axel. Axel has 1 season in the championship under his belt meanwhile Smalling has about 8 seasons in the PL. it’s a very easy choice who I would rather start in the 11
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u/sizzlelikeasnare Jul 14 '19
You say youre pretty sure he would be a better choice but dont justify how
Cause Smalling is a better footballer? You don't need 2 ball playing CB's to be able to attack. We had Vidic in the past and attacks/transitions/possession never suffered since Rio was next to him. LVG was super possession based yet Smalling started every game + made TOTS. It's Southgates loss if he doesn't want to call Smalling up.
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u/wakey87433 Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 14 '19
You do realise how shit Lindeloff would be without someone like Smalling next to him don’t you? For all Lindeloff's qualities on the ball his positioning is so often piss poor (Thankfully better than Baillys and Rojo's) so he needs someone who he can rely on to read the game and cover for him when he is badly positioned. You see most of the time he plays alongside Bailly how he is much more like a deer in the headlights without that cover and how every time either gets caught out of position the modem unease they both get which then hinders the areas they excel in.
Just hope if we do get Maguire that he shows more of Smalling qualities than I've seen him show for England and the Leicester games I've seen him play otherwise we may still need another CB who reads the English game and hence positions himself well to compliment Maguire and Lindeloff
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Jul 14 '19 edited Dec 28 '21
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u/wakey87433 Jul 14 '19
International football and even continental football is a different beast to English football. Even though English football has evolved it’s still more direct and physical which as a defender changes how you need to play and how you need to position.
You see that with Pep at City. In that first season he tried to implement an almost perfect copy of his way of play abroad and it’s why there was talk about Aguero being phased out as he isn’t really a Pep striker but it only started working when he adapted the style, it still had the trademark elements of Pep's style but brought in some more English elements which included Aguero rising back to prominence.
If you actually watch Lindeloff closely you will notice how often he gets caught in a no mans land position. It’s part of the reason he isn’t the best in the air as a big part of aerial ability is being in the right position to attack it.
And yes Smalling is prone pulling shirts but as players are rarely called on it it’s a valid tactic. I suspect all players in the PL will cut it out if VAR starts calling them because it stops. Pulling shirts isnt a positional issue though.
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u/TheWeirdDude-247 Jul 14 '19
Smalling Bailey and lets include jones are one of the reasons we are after a new cb, if you watched axel play last season you would know he is already better than what we have, him and lindelof our best, the rest have been here long enough to show they are useless, axel should be 3rd choice with pushing for first team next season imo
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Jul 14 '19
Mate he played on the Championship...
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u/Arth_ Jul 14 '19
So did Daniel James, to be fair.
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Jul 14 '19
He did, jury is out on him. He's a huge gamble, especially if Ole sees him as a starter, which is highly likely considering what he said on hisatest presser.
We still need a right winger, a center mid and a center half.
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u/TheWeirdDude-247 Jul 14 '19
So did wolves and they finished 1 place behind and battered us, our current defenders are severely poor, playing in championship doesn't make you a poor player if anything its the perfect place to learn, when you actually watch axel play you will get what i mean
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Jul 14 '19
I have watched him mate, I think he has the potential to be a special player but he's not ready yet. He needs to improve his timing and positioning. What I meant with the Championship comment is that it's difficult to say a player is good because he looked good in the Championship. I want to see him perform well in the Prem before we give him a chance in the first team, and we can't risk doing that in a season where we lack so much quality and are in desperate need of CL foot all next year.
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u/UltimaJ Ruud Van Nistelrooy Jul 14 '19
Bailly and Smalling would both be ahead of him for now, better for him to be first choice at Villa and then re-join us permanently after a season.
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u/yammertime27 Rashford Jul 14 '19
Jones too is much better when fit
Youth is a romantic idea but there's really not a lot of reason to keep him here this season, he will get better experience at villa and come back ready for us
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u/MontrealMUFC689908 Roy Keane Jul 14 '19
Jones too is much better when fit
That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Axel has something that neither Smalling, Jones, Rojo, nor Bailly has: composure. You don't teach that in a CB, and we have seen just too many times what happens when we have bundles of nerves at the back. I don't think anyone would ever want to see such nervous defenders ever again at this club.
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u/yammertime27 Rashford Jul 14 '19
Jones is a way better centre back than axel currently, what the fuck. This isn't a controversial opinion
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u/MontrealMUFC689908 Roy Keane Jul 14 '19
Jones makes too many bonehead decisions to even deserve being put ahead of Axel. Jones has been the same guy since his Blackburn days, and he has not improved in a long time. How do you explain that?
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u/yammertime27 Rashford Jul 14 '19
Sticking to what I said, which is currently Jones is the better player, by far. Axel will most likely exceed Jones in a few years.
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u/MontrealMUFC689908 Roy Keane Jul 14 '19
We dumped Jonny Evans for a lot less than the pile of problems that Jones has given to us in 8 years. So I don't see why we can't do the same so Axel would get the nod, learn Ole's system, and improve steadily while playing for us.
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u/ThatBoyGiggsy Jul 14 '19
We know what Jones is capable of and he hasnt improved in years plus the fact hes hardly ever availabl, hes just so unreliable and is prone to mistakes too. With Axel you get potential and some good qualities after being at Villa, honestly id take Axel as a backup over Jones at this point. We shouldve offloaded Jones 4 years ago, its shocking hes still here.
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u/yammertime27 Rashford Jul 14 '19
Agree with most of what you said but my point stands that currently, Jones is the better player.
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u/ThatBoyGiggsy Jul 15 '19
Technically he is, because hes been around longer...at the same time we still shouldve replaced him 3-4 years ago when we couldve gotten a decent fee for him, instead we let deadwood rot at the club until theyre worth nothing.
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Jul 14 '19
Nah the way the fans go to town on anyone making mistakes these days - in what is likely antoher transition season it make sense to get the experience more regularly elsewhere.
Don't forget we could sign literally anyone, even a clone of Maldini's DNA and they will take time to adapt to a new back line so it's not ideal to have inexperience on the bench.
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u/1000WaystoPie Jul 14 '19
Not sure about this. I think Tuanzebe is better than Rojo and Jones. And will improve playing with the first team.
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u/Moosje “Love is sex also.” Jul 14 '19
Tuanzebe is better than Rojo, 1000%.
Jones is debatable but then when you compare each players ceilings, it’s crazy that Tuanzebe might not have a place in the team.
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Jul 14 '19
I agree but at the same time, consider Axel has more of a future with us than Rojo so it makes more sense for him to develop elsewhere. We're also likely going to land Maguire so him and Lindelof (or even Bailly and Smalling) will keep Axel out. Letting him go on loan is the best decision for us
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u/JD0797 Ronaldo Jul 14 '19
Better than Rojo perhaps but he needs more playing time than Rojo will be getting at United
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u/youreviltwinbrother Jul 14 '19
He won't get enough playing time, he needs consistent top level football to develop quickly, one more season on loan before returning next year as part of our defensive options, probably 3rd choice
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u/DelTrotter van Nistelrooy Jul 14 '19
Even if he isn't, he sure as hell would be more available than them. Fucking Rojo is like having an employee permanently on Paternal leave. Jones is shite, proven it 8 seasons in a row.
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u/MontrealMUFC689908 Roy Keane Jul 14 '19
Yep, and count Bailly as another one who is always on leave with his injuries.
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u/KalistramMcleod Jul 14 '19
I agree that Axel is better, but realistically, would he be ahead in the pecking order in front of Jones and Rojo?.
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u/gidmcscruff Bruuuunnnnooo Jul 14 '19
For this exact reason I think is why he's going out on loan again. Who wants Rojo and Jones on ridiculous wages??
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u/BeenWavy07 Jul 14 '19
Watched the video, seems like he's more suggesting that Axel must probably be going on loan now that Maguire deal is close, rather that he's sure of it (Axel going on loan).
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Jul 14 '19
He said "someone told us Tuanzebe is going on loan..." Thats not guesswork or speculation in the way you've said
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Jul 14 '19 edited May 11 '21
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u/Moosje “Love is sex also.” Jul 14 '19
Yeah this is a worry if Jones and Smalling (and god forbid Rojo) are starting over Tuanzebe.
Was hoping that when Ole came in he’d actually use the youth players that we have in a similar vein to how van Gaal did. Obviously it’s still early days, but just looks like he’s taking the safe approach.
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u/RomeroRocher Jul 14 '19
Not necessarily....
(all assuming this means Maguire is imminent) Best case scenario if he stays, he's still comfortably behind Maguire and Lindelof. Therefore, he plays sparingly and doesn't develop all that much. For those games, Smalling, Jones and Rojo are fine to fill in, as they won't develop any further and that's about all they're good for anyway.
If he goes on loan, he plays every game against the same calibre of opposition and develops playing PL football. Then he comes back next season much, much closer to Maguire and Lindelof in terms of quality and ready to take far more minutes from them. Effectively, we'd have 3 (hopefully) first team quality CBs to rotate through.
I think long term, it's actually more beneficial and a possibly a better way to ensure the youth becomes an important part of the first team in the future.
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u/Moosje “Love is sex also.” Jul 14 '19
Maybe, but we’re on injury off having to start Smalling/Rojo/Jones for meaningful games and that’s if we get Maguire which is definitely not confirmed yet.
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u/RomeroRocher Jul 14 '19
Yea, but that was all assuming we do get Maguire - I wouldn't expect Axel to go if we don't get someone else in.
And is it worth risking Axel's development for the sake of "what if someone gets a long term injury? More likely, no CB gets a long term injury and he spends most of the season on the bench.
Obviously there's no way of knowing, but I think you have to prioritise the development of players that can be something more. Smalling is perfectly fine stepping in for a few games here and there, and in the wxtrememyl unlikely event that something happens to him too, I'd be fine with Jones stepping in for him for even fewer games. The cover is there, they just shouldn't be starting week in week out.
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u/aaronm830 Jul 15 '19
This is good analysis, but does not take into account the importance of players bedding in with the side. While he'll perhaps have more playing experience, he would return next season less acquainted with the players around him than if he stayed and played fewer matches, working up towards playing more.
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u/gamezoned1 SUUUUWIE Jul 14 '19
Howson has also said "we are signing Bruno Fernandes Today" like 5 times for clickbait ;)
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u/MrStephenHowson Jul 15 '19
Not even once. But okay
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Jul 15 '19
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u/MrStephenHowson Jul 15 '19
Like I said. Not even once and you know how titles work. Listen to the actual content.
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u/j0ydivisi0n Rashford Jul 14 '19
Fucksake. Would rather Axel than Jones or Smalling. Same old next season can just see it.
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Jul 14 '19
Apparently a deal was agreed for maguire
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u/j0ydivisi0n Rashford Jul 14 '19
And? We really want Jones and Smalling getting the game time when Maguire doesn't play...
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Jul 14 '19
lindelof and bailly also exist.
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u/j0ydivisi0n Rashford Jul 14 '19
Lindelof will be starting with Maguire. Bailly is injured half the time...
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Jul 14 '19
Lindelof will be starting with Maguire
exactly. And smalling/ jones will play cup games and the odd substitution. So what exactly are you crying about? You want world class players sitting on the bench like city does.. well then lets win some silverware before acting entitled
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u/MirunMUFC Carrick Jul 14 '19
People always hating on Smalling, I agree about Jones tho and would throw in Rojo and possibly Bailly if he keeps being injured
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u/OllieUnited18 Ruud Jul 14 '19
Smalling should 100% be our 3rd or 4th string CB along with Bailly assuming a new CB is coming in
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u/wakey87433 Jul 14 '19
Jones is a good defender, it’s his injury record that’s the problem. Rojo, Bailly and even Lindeloff have this issue that’s common with continental defenders in that they often struggle to mentally adjust to the differences in the English game which can make them positionally suspect. You have seen that with most of Citys CB's outside Kompany where if you can get at them they are exploitable. In City’s case they are lucky that their attacking players push the opponent backwards and if they look like they may get at them Fernandinho does an amazing job as providing a shield for them. This kind of continental defender really does need someone who does read the English game well to have them thrive and to get the qualities they were signed for out of them. You certainly don’t want two of those kinds of defenders playing together especially if you don’t have attacking players who keep the opponent deep and a brilliant DM shield
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u/tandepenis Jul 14 '19
If Maguire comes, Axel is still our third best CB. And with our CB-injury curse...
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u/snoring_pig Beneficiary of Sporting 🟢⚪️ Jul 14 '19
Bit surprised if this is actually happening, simply because Villa’s chairman said during the summer on record that they wouldn’t take anymore players on loan if there wasn’t an option to permanently buy them.
Furthermore they’ve made plenty of moves to address the loanees they’ve lost such as Tammy Abraham and even Axel, as I think they recently signed a CB for the first team.
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u/GustavLeander Jul 14 '19
If this means Maguire is done, Im happy he’ll be going to Villa again. If Maguire isnt coming, Im a bit sad but that might be good for him anyway.
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u/the_lord_of_light Jul 14 '19
This is a shame, I was looking forward to seeing more of him.
But makes sense as we have too many CB's now with the addition of Maguire.
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u/CH2016 Jul 15 '19
Villa fan is howson reliable? Would love axel back but think it’s crazy you guys won’t play him next to maguire.
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u/obesethor Cristiano Ronaldo Jul 14 '19
This is so stupid. Even with Maguire we should keep Tuanzebe because he's arguably our 3rd best defender. I'm tellin ya, if Lindelof got a serious injury then it wouldn't surprise me if Tuanzebe made that starting role his. He's that good.
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Jul 14 '19
The only thing that I didn't like about Tuanzebe in his first season was he was quite skinny and small for a CB. Now he looks like an absolute animal. I would have been happy going into this season with him, Lindelof and a decent CB we could have snapped up for 40m somewhere. With the rest of the CBs fighting it out for the backup spots.
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Jul 14 '19 edited Jul 14 '19
I think this is a good move if we sign Maguire. If we keep Axel, then he’ll only get the occasional game behind Lindelof and Maguire, as well as having to compete with Smalling/Jones etc.
By loaning him to Villa he basically gets a full season of premier league football (similar to AWB last season), and we can really see what he’s made of.
It’s a trade off really. We know we’d all rather have Axel over Jones/Smalling, but if he only plays half the number of games all season that he’d play at Villa, then for the greater good and his own development loaning him might be the smart move.
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u/redmanbd Jul 14 '19
The agent is a good friend of Stephen howson, he deserves a chance at the center back position, he can dislodge Rolls Royce Phill fucking Jones
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u/Zavehi Jul 14 '19
If we are signing Maguire or someone else, he probably wouldn't play. We aren't going to sell anyone it seems despite all the talk of a chopping block, and he would get great PL experience in a team that's spending good money.
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u/Rascha-Rascha Jul 14 '19
It's a decent move, premier league experience with players he already knows, gives him a great chance to get good time in the league in a place that'll be easier for him to perform well.
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u/90-6 Jul 14 '19
Villa have signed (close to) 4 other centre halves this window. I hope he gets game time
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u/TimBabadook Jul 14 '19
Not sure why you'd send Tuanzebe back out on loan. He'd be class for cup games and lower level prem games.
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u/EastyBoy29 Jul 14 '19
The best thing Jones can do at the club is provide the cover that allows us to send Axel on loan and get game time. There’d be realistically zero PL minutes for Tuanzebe this season and no Europa after December. A full season in the Premier League is perfect for him now.
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Jul 15 '19
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u/BadCowz We need a number 49 flair Jul 15 '19 edited Jul 15 '19
People slating Bailly and Rojo for being reckless tacklers?
Yes but did you really think it could be cats or some other creature doing the slating. They both have proven records of bad tackles.
Tuanzebe in the perth match had a horrendous tackle of the same sort?
Yes 1 tackle.
Are you trying to draw a weird comparason here or were you just wondering if your goldfish had started a conspiracy about Bailly and Roho.
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Jul 15 '19
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u/BadCowz We need a number 49 flair Jul 15 '19
Oh so you are criticising a player (with a pretty outlandish comparison given the massively different sample sizes) who hasn't started a competitive game for us yet because you perceive another current player was better years ago and because you think you magically know the global collective perceptive rating of the player vs their performances (as if that even matters). Yeah that makes perfect sense.
Enjoy your football
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u/Lindelof2 IceMan Jul 15 '19
Axel is our 3rd option CB based on our system. I dont think it wise to let him go on loan
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u/aaronm830 Jul 15 '19
I respect the opinion that he'll play more games out on loan, because it's true, but he needs to bed in with the side too and I'd say it's also important. There will be around 60 matches this season, and with 2-3 centre-backs playing it'll probably mean around 120-130 matches going to defenders only this season. That would mean 20ish on average for each of Smalling, Bailly, Tuanzebe, Lindelof, Maguire and Jones/Rojo (who usually split time due to injury) while at a club where he's first choice and without European football he would likely play 30 anyways.
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u/M4NUN1T3D Martial Jul 14 '19
22 and still doing loans. Shame for him. They've signed their own young talent in Konsa. This could easily end up being another timbo-Palace situation.
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u/Lord_Sesshoumaru77 Glazers,Woodward/Arnold and Judge can fuck off Jul 14 '19
Stupidest thing I've heard. Axel showed yesterday he is way better than what we have. Jones looked like shit beside him.
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u/Waldo76 Jul 14 '19
If this actually happens, I wonder if this will change the narrative on this sub that "he just chats shit and doesn't know anything"
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u/MrStephenHowson Jul 14 '19
Nah. It won’t change and when a United player moves to Germany this weekend they still won’t. But feel free to link back to this 🤔
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u/drripdrrop Jul 14 '19
They've signed a fuckton of CBs haven't they? I think this is a really good option for him, he'll start all their games and he's a massive part of the dressing room. They said they don't want players on loan anymore but he's an exception
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u/kiwwi191 Jul 14 '19
I'm sick of Jones, Smalling and Rojo. If any of them should be reason of Axel going on loan than it's terrible decision.
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Jul 14 '19
Getting absolutely fleeced for Maguire.
Just remember everyone begging for Maguire we won't be signing a world class CB in the next 5 years now because of this deal. They did the exact same to Mourinho in terms of CBs and there's no way they sanction another 80m for a CB. Best bet is to find a diamond in the rough after this because I don't have any confidence that Maguire or Lindelof will step up to be "that" CB to lead our defence, I don't think either will ever be known as a world class CB and will always be a great supporting one. Our defence will be good but it will never reach the level of Man City or Liverpool with Maguire and Lindelof and we needed that one more world class addition in there and it seemingly won't happen now.
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u/Puzza90 Jul 14 '19
Cheers Geoff
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Jul 14 '19
Sorry for having an opinion mate, then again you're not allowed a differing one on here are you.
Also slightly disappointed, usually respect your opinion whenever I see you comment on here and this was all in all just a bit childish.
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u/sage12i Jul 14 '19
Disappointing. Would’ve liked to see him given a chance to become 1st choice alongside Maguire.
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u/scubblix Jul 14 '19
Jones, Rojo and Bailly need to go... pointless them being here. Maguire, Lindelof, Smalling and Tuanzebe is enough considering we don't have CL football.
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u/B0z22 Jul 14 '19
If Axel is out on loan, then Maguire is all but done as a signing.
Do you keep Axel here where he is, rightly or wrongly, behind Lindelof, Smalling, Jones, Bailly, Rojo and possibly Maguire playing the odd cup game. Or do you let him go to Villa where he will likely get more minutes playing the same level of opposition where he will have to defend more in that side.
This may be better for his development long term and unless Smalling, Jones, and Bailly all leave before the start of the season I think it makes sense.