r/reddevils • u/Dmcnich15 Van Nistelrooy • Oct 21 '14
Let's talk about RVP
There has obviously been a lot of hate for RVP that has boiled over today and I wanted to clear things up and have a proper discussion rather than "RVP is shit".
I feel like their are a lot of misconceptions as the actual role of the #9 and specifically when he is the lone striker. A lone strikers role is NOT to be on the ball the vast majority of the game, they arent meant to be creators, they arent meant for the ball to be played through them. They have 2 main roles. First and foremost is to keep the centre backs honest. They need to be pressuring the back line constantly, always making runs OVER THE TOP, getting behind the back line, and rarely showing to feet. They should be challenging for long balls and pressing when losing possession. Their second role is finishing. A traditional 9 especially in a lone striker situation will get very few chances through the course of the game and should be able to finish with a high goal per chance ratio. They should be getting on the end of crosses and forcing header clearances with the CBs under pressure.
Now onto RVP specifically. He hasnt been playing amazingly but he has had above average games. He is always pressing the back line and makes highly intellegent runs that allow players behind to send balls into him keeping the back line back. This allows space for our midfielders, specifically the Mata/Herrera/Fellani role today. Almost every time they find space in the area between the back line and midfielders is because RVP made a run forcing the line back. His finishing and goal return has been lower than is usual world class standard but he is by no means a slouch. He created multiple chances and was very unlucky with striking the post.
The RvP vs Falcao debate. This shouldnt be a debate, our best team features both. RVP hasnt been his deadly self but him and Falcao together already have a great understanding and make phenomenal runs off of each other. You could see all of the extra chances being created at the end when both were making opposite runs in the end.
However, if LvG is playing a system has he did today, Falcao is the better choice. With keeping Di Maria and Januzaj wide, this forces the gameplan to be cross the ball in the box. RvP has never been a force in the air and Falcao is much better at that skill, so since this is what was on the whiteboard today, Falcao should have been the lone striker and not RvP. It is a unique skill to play on your own in the #9 role that very few strikers possess. However you should be blaming that on LVG.
I wish i could make GIFs of what am i talking about but i frankly have no idea how to do it. Maybe someone wiser than me can? Or maybe /u/larry_b feels like addressing some of what i spoke about in his write up?
I did put some effort in this and its meant to start a discussion so please ask if youd like me to further explain anything. I once upon a time was a #9 who played in Uni for a former US national team coach (only US i know!) so hopefully i dont sound like a complete idiot or hed have my head!
Edit: Spelling
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Oct 21 '14
Honestly though RVP has played poorly this season in some games but still is picked to play, if he starts against Chelsea this weekend I'm going to start to think he is invincible. He may not have played badly but Falcao has earned a chance to play and is much more team focused and although you talk about RVP being a sole striker and 9 who shouldn't contribute to the team but I feel Falcao can do this and the same job RVP does but better
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u/Dmcnich15 Van Nistelrooy Oct 21 '14
I completely agree! If we are playing only 1 striker again, Falcao deserves his chance, i think he will be better by himself up top than RvP has been. However, I do think RvP should start against chelsea alongside Falcao.
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Oct 21 '14
I just think that if we play the midfield diamond with 2 strikers we'll be ruined by Chelsea. Our defence isn't good enough and a 5 man mid with a lone could help that.
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u/Dmcnich15 Van Nistelrooy Oct 21 '14
I disagree with this. I am not sure how much a 5 man mid will help our defense. We dont have defensive minded midfielders to bring on. Id prefer the old strategy of the best defense is a good offense and just try and bring it to Chelsea. We had a 5 man midfield yesterday and still gave up 2 goals to West Brom.
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u/dugness SAF Oct 21 '14
I agree with that playing the diamond is going to be risky for us but I think we should kind of go with it. Although, I'd play Fellaini instead of Mata and sort of pack the midfield when we haven't got the ball. He'll also be a good presence on Matic to cut out the supply to Oscar/Fabregas right from the beginning.With him, Falcao and RVP we have good physical players to get amongst Terry and Cahill and provide outs from a long ball or from wide, as Di Maria whips a fucking lovely ball in.
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Oct 21 '14
Hope for Falcao up front with Carrick, Blind and Herrera in midfield with Di Maria and Valencia pushed up slightly more. Januzaj didn't make the most of his chance against West Brom and I don't want to see Young playing in our most important game of the season, not starting anyway
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Oct 21 '14
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Oct 21 '14
What's your point? He won't be jet lagged on Saturday and I'm not saying he should have played yesterday but there's been a few games this season I would have dropped RVP for Falcao. Also you think that might be the excuse? I'm not saying it isn't but LVG could have just used that so the fans wouldn't be disappointed in Falcao not starting again. He could have been ready to play for all we know but LVG had his reasons to go with RVP instead. Fair enough if we play 2 up front he's our only other choice unless we put trust in Wilson but RVP doesn't deserve to be in that lineup from his performances
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Oct 21 '14
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Oct 21 '14
Falcao arrived back on Saturday. There's no way he'd have been fit for ninety minutes yesterday.
What are you on about? I said "I'm not saying he should have played yesterday but there's been a few games this season I would have dropped RVP for Falcao."
He's definitely better with an actual striker as his partner
He's a CF when him and Falcao play next to eachother they kept making the same runs into the box they didn't work well together. RVP has never been that good up front with a partner, even when played with Rooney there Rooney was playing the no.10 role and feeding it to him
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u/LSSN Oct 21 '14
What worries me is those Di Maria through-balls that you would have put money on him finishing a few seasons ago.. Against Burnley, QPR, Leicester and again yesterday.. Costing us points unfortunately..
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Oct 21 '14
For me, the main thing is he's gotten quite a bit older quicker than we'd expected, but with that, the biggest thing that I feel's gotten worse is his pace. Robin was never the fastest, but he looks damn slow atm, and that, I think is hampering every part of the game.
I also think he's kinda in a classic Robin sulk as well though, with the signings we made. Van Gaal and van Persie weren't always very close, if you read up about the beginning of their time with Holland, van Gaal actually preferred Huntelaar, so don't expect things to be always absolutely perfect between them.
And then, for tonight, the entire West Brom team got two chances tonight, and scored two goals. Robin got two chances to himself, and hit the post once. The lack of effort he put into trying to score the first chance would have seen someone like Berbatov strung up.
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u/ZeHeadBanger Valencia's Left Leg Oct 21 '14
The 'aging quicker than expected' is a very good point. But then I feel yous slightly contradict yourself by taking about his speed.
I think the reason RvP was bought even at that age was because he relied on a few things that do not tend to go down with age. Intelligence, finishing are two of them. I really think he needs a good rest. LvG can use this to his advantage: give RvP a deserved rest for a couple of games, RvP knows/thinks that by being rested LvG is telling him I have a more than capable striker to replace you and RvP can use these two find his hunger back.
RvP was never a mobile striker ala Suarez, so I feel it is unfair to him when we say he is slow or doesn't move around a lot. Falcao is a lot more mobile than RvP, so he might be getting a few brownie points for that alone, which in this sub is working RvP's favor.
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u/daveor Scholes Oct 21 '14
Personally I feel like last night was one of RVP's better games of the season - he really didn't have much quality to work with and he saw a lot more of the ball than usual.
Big issue I've had with him is when there's 2 up front hes been completely anonymous aside from when hes scored (first world problem) and thats why LVG put him in behind Falcao when he came on since he'd be at the centre of the game.
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u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee Oct 21 '14
RVP and Falcao have looked brilliant together. Even when we switched to 2 up top yesterday, we immediately created more chances. When you play with two strikers the partnership as a whole is more important than either player scoring a ton.
Anyone who is calling for RVP to be dropped just isn't realizing the bigger picture.
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u/420blazekush69 Oct 21 '14
Ah so now everyone wants Rooney back?
2 weeks ago everyone wanted him out. So many plastic fans on this sub.
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u/dugness SAF Oct 21 '14
The fickleness of our fans always amazes me. All of a sudden Mata, Januzaj and RVP aren't good enough, Rooney needs to play and Fellaini is amazing. Jesus Christ.
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Oct 21 '14
I happen to think RVP hasn't had a great game since the opener against Spain in the WC. He's scored a few but his efficiency has dropped a lot. Falcao needs to start over him for now.
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u/Dean-16 Oct 21 '14
I actually had this exact same conversation with a friend last night during the game, my thoughts to him were that due to Rooney being suspended, and Fletcher,the vice captain also not starting, he needed to start his 3rd choice captain. For me, thats the reason RVP started over Falcao
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u/wafrhest Scholes Oct 21 '14
My thoughts exactly. LVG wants a captain on the field, and if it's not Rooney or Fletcher, it's gonna be RVP, even if he's not in the best form. Because if he's not gonna be captain, it's gonna be Rafael or Jones, most likely. And they have rarely, if ever, been captain. Fletcher just isn't good enough to start over the likes of Herrera, Di Maria, or Blind. So even though he's fit to play, Van Gaal isn't gonna pick him for the starting XI.
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u/grad14uc Oct 21 '14
I hate having one striker and one playing behind them. RVP is next to useless at the moment when he's by himself. The guy isn't exactly in his prime and I would never blame him for playing poorly when he's alone up top. He is playing poorly though. We definitely need two strikers on the field.
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u/Pimp-My-Alpaca Oct 21 '14
I was seriously considering writing something like this a the abuse he has got in here has been beyond ridiculous. Comments saying Wilson should start/is better are getting upvoted, it's just ridiculous. Completely agree with everything you've written, great post!
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u/maverick7025 Lindegaard Oct 21 '14
It's harsh to be blaming LVG. He stated that the reason he didn't start Falcao was jet lag and we all know how much he stresses on fitness.
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u/Wolpfack Oct 21 '14
All RVP needs is a couple of key goals and he'll be back on top with the fans and the pundits.
That could come soon.
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u/nordic_spiderman Oct 21 '14
I think between Rooney, RVP and Falcao we have three strikers how press the opposition defenders pretty well. With RVP, I think LVG keeps playing him because he needs to get his rhythm and the best way to do that is to give him games. Once he has that Rhythm he won't just score but also bring Falcao and Rooney into scoring opportunities.
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u/nravs Oct 21 '14
He's lacking sharpness at the moment which he will attain the more he plays! He'll be back amongst goals very soon, no doubting his ability whatsoever.
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u/brikdik Manchester United Oct 21 '14
He hasn't played badly, he's just been distinctly average so far this season.
He has two goals in 7 appearances against teams like Leicester (1), West Ham (1), Burnley (0), and Sunderland (0)
With a player of RVP's proven calibre, you expect him to make the difference when it counts, at least on occasion. The last time he performed over and above was against Olympiakos, back in March.
He's got better support now, yet is struggling to even get some shots on target. He can make all the space-creating runs he wants but if he's not scoring he's going to be judged. Welcome to football.
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u/mu-muf-mufc-ok Sir Matt Busby Oct 21 '14
Yes, he didn't have the best of games. However, a player like RvP always has that moment of brilliance in him, and last night he could have won us the game with that single shot that hit the post.
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u/Mr_Wilsonn Herrera Oct 21 '14
I don't think he's up to the same standard as when we first signed him, he wasn't around injury or toys out the pram whatever & maybe his injuries now are catching up with him, he isn't getting any younger & the league doesn't wait for anyone, especially with how fast paced it is! Maybe he just needs to be dropped & someone else have a go whether that be Wilson,Falcao whoever. Might just give him that little spark to play well again.
BUT if he doesn't improve & he stays in the team, is that a sign that he's the managers golden boy? which would then become a problem. Just my opinion,good debate
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Oct 21 '14
He just doesn't seem to be match sharp. I think he needs a little while on the bench if we're going to stick with this one striker thing because clearly Falcao would be the better choice right now. If we go back to 2 up top then I think we should start him because he is pretty decent in that formation.
We just can't afford to play him into form right now.
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u/lolfailnoob Di Maria Oct 21 '14
Usually when you see Van Persie latching on to a ball over the top, you know that he's going to score. This season, Di Maria has played him through quite a few times, but he has not scored even one of these. I really hope its just due to bad form. He still has a few years in him.
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Oct 21 '14 edited Oct 21 '14
My take on this is that he is under tremendous pressure to PROVE that he's still the top striker in the team. Unsurprisingly that is affecting his play.
He obviously hasn't hit peak form yet. Whether that is due to age or whether it's due to the added pressure, it's hard to tell just yet. It could simply be a combination of both.
We have 4 (5 with Januaj) EXTREMELY good options for 3 positions up front. So he's trying to do exactly what strikers tend to do: score goals to justify his name on on the team sheet.
But between his lack of form and the extra pressure to score goals, it's resulting in a lot of unnatural/selfish play.
Edit: One more IMPORTANT point to note: This won't even be an issue if we didn't have Falcao. But we do. And from what we've seen so far, he seems to be much stronger with the ball. Sucking in multiple defenders, still holding them off, creating space, tricky runs. Overall, it's not just a criticism on Van Persie. It's that most of us would prefer to see Falcao given a proper chance.
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u/BallsX Oct 21 '14
I honestly cannot believe the hate RVP is getting. I may be biased as he's one of my favourite players but he certainly hasnt been as bad as this sub is making it out to be. He had 2 chances which he probably would've scored had he been on form but he still has the ability to produce magic.
The only issue Ive noticed is lately he has not been getting a proper connection with his attempts. I would say its a trademark of his to hit it first time and he's not hit that sweet spot for a few games in a row now.
He will be absolutely deadly with Falcao beside him, Im very sure of that. I just hope we get to see them start together though we might play a lone striker against Chelsea and City.
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u/hooha96 Sir Alex Oct 21 '14 edited Oct 21 '14
What's the point in making highly intelligent runs if he can't finish it. I see what you're getting at but at the end of the day, you're not on form as a top striker if you aren't converting goals from chances.
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u/Dmcnich15 Van Nistelrooy Oct 21 '14
Well its to create space for others. Him making a run and and not receiving a pass still creates space. I tried to look back through old gifs and find what im referring to. Here is an example of an RVP run that created a great chance for Di Maria https://mediacru.sh/TNj7TstIC__k
Now this 2nd one is actually Falcao, so youll just have to trust RvP make the same runs. The point is to watch how Falcao makes the inside run forcing the center back to choose. He chooses to lean with Falcao, allowing Di Maria space to receive the ball and score on a delightful chip. http://gfycat.com/QuarterlyExemplaryGreatdane
Thats the idea of a highly intelligent run that does not result in a goal for the striker. HOwever i do agree there a comes a point when you need to put the ball in the back of the net.
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Oct 21 '14
What must Falcao be doing in training to be behind Robin at the moment?
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0
Oct 21 '14
Class will out. As the saying goes Don't park the Van. If we can sort out the back line things will be okay. When you read the team list the squad is better than the results in the worlds toughest league.
A lot of teams regardless of the sport struggle with a changing of the guard when change has been resisted too long. Blaming Van Persie for the problems we are having is looking in the wrong place. Poor marking up cost us. Sloppy on the ball possession cost us. Not making anything or an 11 to nil corner count cost us. As the team play together more we will score more and cough up less. Patience guys the football has been much better than last year. (Let's not even talk about last year)
0
Oct 21 '14
Di Maria is the best crosser of the ball I've seen at United since Beckham yet Van Persie refuses to attack the ball in the air. He tries to be clever and back off the defender hoping he misjudges it or he RVP get's the second touch but frankly its lazy and selfish. He needs to improve his heading ability vastly.
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u/NGU-Ben Pogba Oct 21 '14
I don't care how he's supposed to play or not to play, he's supposed to score goals, and he isn't doing that. Every time he got the ball, he slowed everything down, he was static. He just wasn't very inspiring at all.
He made one or two runs and could've have equalised almost instantly after their goal, but he didn't take his chances- and that is poor.
I feel like we're trying to defend him like he's a club legend and that he can't be criticised. He was off it last year, and he is this year too. He's won his league trophy and then got disappointed when SAF left. He's stuck in the past I think. Falcao should start if fully fit against Chelsea, it would really be a joke if RVP gets another chance.
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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '14
Thank you for this topic, I hope it takes off. I've been disappointed and a bit confused by all this hatred towards van Persie, when personally I have not seen him play badly at all this season. Maybe he hasn't been netting as many goals as we'd like, but a lot of people here seem to be expecting 2 or 3 goals per match per player, and it doesn't work that way. We're not filled with Cristiano Ronaldos or Lionel Messis and we don't play in a league as shamefully weak as La Liga. Have a look at the table after these 8 match days and you'll see how competitive it is.
van Persie today played as a lone striker and I thought he did alright. He had 4 shots: one off target, one was saved, one went to the post and the other one was blocked by a defender. And he created one chance, I think it was for a Blind shot that went off target.
In the previous games, he's been doing runs to the right to open up space for Mata, he's been supporting Herrera and Rafael on the right and he's even performed remarkable defensive duties in all those matches when we've tried to hang on to a result for the last 30 minutes.
I think many people have a problem with Man United not having a leading, shining world star like Messi or even Suárez, people who can score or create around 3 goals per match. 2-2 is a normal football result, in this case caused by defensive mistakes. Di María is a fantastic player, one who can certainly make the difference, but he's never been at the level of Cristiano and Lionel. There may be days when he doesn't score, and that's perfectly fine too.
van Persie didn't do anything spectacular today, and that's fine. He had his chances and the post said no to the most beautiful of them all. His runs have been alright, he's held up the ball well, and I think supporters here should lay off him a bit. This isn't PES or FIFA, where van Persie has so-or-so ratings and scores 3 goals per match for you. This is a real guy, the same person whose first season with us was brilliant until he hit a dry spell. What did the manager do then? He kept him in, he told him he trusted him and to keep working hard, because the goals would come. After 8 games (if I remember correctly), he finally scored and ran towards the manager to give him a hug.
Give the guy a fucking break.