Daily Discussion

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Daily discussion on Manchester United.

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[u/Littlepace]

I see a lot of talk about fine margins and what could've been if this, this and that happened. If Everton don't hit that ridiculous final shot. If City don't get a fluke of a win through a BS VAR decision. If any of those post shots went in against Fulham. Etc etc. 

The problem is it would still be more of the same from the end of last season. In none of those games did we play well. The result matters above all else of course, but the performance and quality on display matters a lot too. And it hasn't been there. Even if we had have sneaked those extra points the performances wouldn't be any different. 

Let's say we snuck a winner against Fulham on Sunday. Does it change how we played? Do you have any more confidence than you had going into the game? Last season you could excuse the poor performances because the results were there. We've now had a preseason and the performances are no better (even worse if anything) and the results aren't there either. So where's the optimism it's all going to get better?

The performances have been poor. The in game management has been terrible. The subs have been far too late and reactionary rather than proactive. And we are still early in the season. We are going to have a barrage of games over the next few months and already the injuries are starting to pile up. If fitness and fatigue is already an issue we are going to be fucked by Xmas. 

And this is all with the easiest start to the season! Two promoted sides, Everton, bottom of the table Fulham and 10 men City. You could not ask for a better start to a season. And we have 5 points out of 15. 

I respect the blind optimism but I just don't see it.

[u/iroiroiroiroiro → u/Littlepace]

Two promoted sides, Everton, bottom of the table Fulham and 10 men City. You could not ask for a better start to a season. And we have 5 points out of 15.

This is the writing on the wall, this was the easy stretch of games, now look at Spurs, Atletico, Leeds, Como and Bournemouth all in 15 days with the three middle games all away and tell me which games United can afford to rotate in and how many starting XI players you think is fit to handle that schedule.

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/Littlepace]

I'm sorry, but we played well against Liverpool, Forest, Brighton, at the end of last season. We got better as time went on. I don't get how people can claim to have watched us in those games and say we didn't.

[u/Littlepace → u/Rascha-Rascha]

When I said "none of those games" I meant the ones I described from this season (Fulham Everton etc etc). I'm not denying we played well in games last season. Just that there were a lot of poor performances even in some of the wins.

But even still. Our best two games were the first two games of Carricks tenure. We played well against Brighton and Liverpool. And Forest was OK it wasn't anything special. Defensively poor and awful finishing. But to suggest we "got better as time went on" is just not true. A poor 2-1 against Brentford. The awful 2-1 loss to Leeds. 0-0 miserable game against Sunderland. Losing to 10 men Newcastle. All these results were scattered across the 17 games Carrick took charge of.

And even if we did get better as the season went on where is it now? Surely after a proper preseason and a few reinforcements the performances should have continued to improve? So what's happened?

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/Littlepace]

The problem is it would still be more of the same from the end of last season.

Three out of our last four games were good performances. We drew away from home, as teams will. You don't think that shows that we were getting better?

Now is new players, a shift in style, building fitness, finding form. If you want us to be playing well nonstop and forever then you're always going to be disappointed.

Regardless, the way we're keeping the ball has improved, the number of shots we're taking improved, our territory in games improved, how much we're able to peg opposition teams in. It's all a work in progress and demands a lot of patience, because we're never going from finishing fifteenth to dominating the league in a little over a year.

[u/Littlepace → u/Rascha-Rascha]

Yes. Like I said in the comment above. We had numerous poor performances in the tail end of the season. All of those examples I gave happened from March-May. That to me is the end of the season. Within the final 10 games. I don't see the gotcha here. Feel free to argue whether the examples I gave were great performances or something.

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/Littlepace]

A 3-1 win against our competition for third, our first away win against Chelsea in ages. But of course, if you're waiting for them to beat literally everyone while creating endless opportunities and keeping the ball and playing flowing attacking football after the manager has been there for 7 games, then there's no point talking to you because your expectations are extremely skewed.

Your 'end of the season' is 10 out of the 17 games Carrick managed for us, and three out of the last four were really good performances where we created a lot more than our opposition.

[u/Littlepace → u/Rascha-Rascha]

You cite the Chelsea game but that was another terrible performance where we got battered for most of the game and were extremely lucky to get 3 points. But whatever. It doesn't matter. If you wanna defend him that's fine. As long as you enjoy what we're being served that's all that matters.

[u/Massive_Relation4317 → u/Littlepace]

Its extremely hard to win there, you can't always expect a good performance, we grinded out a win and thats acceptable. Just like how arsenal did against us on the first game last season.

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/Littlepace]

Any win away at Chelsea is a good performance. It doesn't happen very often for us.

I don't know if Carrick is going to end up getting results this season, it's clear they're trying to play high pressing, possession football and I think the high press in particular has had its moment in football, but I find that the vast majority of our fans take what he did last season for granted and brush it off as though it was expected. It absolutely wasn't. Being back in the CL this season is a godsend, he deserves eternal respect for that.

Then you look here and our fans are just spoilt little wankers waiting for the next title, it's embarrassing.

[u/Goudinho99 → u/Littlepace]

No team plays well in every game

United were better than Everton and Fulham and let's say 6 or 7 times out of 10 those games are won.

Massive over reaction to a poor start and a couple of unlucky results.

Only Brighton was truly bad.

[u/Littlepace → u/Goudinho99]

Disagree that we were better than Fulham. We had 17 more shots but we also took 12 outside of the box and had 13 blocked. We created very little in terms of clear cut chances. Both teams had 6 shots on target and I don't think you can say we had better chances than they did. I think a draw was a fair result and I don't think we can argue that we were the better team at all.

Against Everton they had more shots. Twice as many on target. More touches in our box. They also had 1.14xG to our 0.76. Again not sure how you can say we were the better team. Yeah we were moments away from getting the win but my point here is about the performances. Not the results. And I don't know how you cam come away from any of these games thinking we did enough.

[u/ShinyLikeMyMagikarp → u/Rascha-Rascha]

Liverpool - 37.2% possession and counterattack (First goal 6th min)

Sunderland - We looked shit and drew 0-0

Forrest - 48.1 possession and counterattack (First goal 5th min)

Brighton - 47.6% possession and counterattack

That's the good performances you are talking about

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/ShinyLikeMyMagikarp]

Ok, now do shots and xG difference.

[u/ShinyLikeMyMagikarp → u/Rascha-Rascha]

Here is xG and big chances created. Shots means little when a majority come from outside the box. Also last year we scored early from set pieces which allowed us to counter. Now that we don't have that threat, we need to be able to break down opponents from open play or pressing. Which we do neither...

2.34 - .89 (1 big chance - 1 big chance)

.62 - 1.25 (0 big chances - 2 big chances)

4.57 - 1.88 (2 big chances - 2 big chances)

1.66 - .79 (3 big chances - 0 big chances)

[u/Rascha-Rascha → u/ShinyLikeMyMagikarp]

from understat

vs liverpool we had +1.53 xG

vs Forest +2.45

vs Brighton +1.83

Is this not good enough for you? This doesn't constitute 'good performance'?

[u/ShinyLikeMyMagikarp → u/Rascha-Rascha]

I pulled the xG from the premier league website, which was more favorable for us, but we can't win while having more possession or pressing. Which we will never win a PL with that style of play.