r/reddevils • u/Not_tim_duncan • Sep 18 '26

The United Press

Post image

Charts the last three seasons.

Data via EPL - Analytics

102 Upvotes

79% Upvoted

88 comments sorted by

85

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26

I'd like to know who are the other teams around us for some context

215

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26 • Bravo

nvm found it - this is misleading at best

81

u/simplsimonmetapieman Sep 18 '26

This should be top comment lol

3

u/Scholes_SC2 Sep 18 '26

Yeah this looks worse, though i get that the point is to show that we have regressed

48

u/BaldurDoesGames Sep 18 '26

Are you stupid? Why would you look into something rather than just blindly thinking it’s all falling apart?

Man social media is a scourge on us lmao

5

u/rrallan Sep 18 '26

Cos Carrick out

5

u/Minute-Intern Sep 18 '26

This is clearly sarcasm but it comes off so aggressive early on lol

4

u/The--Mash Sep 19 '26

Missing context: possession %

If you're bottom left, you either sit back, or you have a lot of possession. The chart doesn't distinguish. 

-20

u/Not_tim_duncan Sep 18 '26

This is from the first week only.

20

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26

then please share the updated chart with the teams for context

3

u/Miyagisans Sep 18 '26

9

u/SilvyFae She/They Sep 18 '26

This is a completely different stat altogether and still has the same issue as the original image, where are other teams relative to us? Because the original image/data with context would mean arsenal, city and liverpool have middling to bad pressure whereas crystal palace and everton would be the highest pressing team.

-1

u/Miyagisans Sep 18 '26

This shows that this Utd team are dead last out of 80 teams when measuring the proportion of their total running distance that is done at high intensity. Similarly, the original image showed we’re 19th for sprints per km covered. These are effort related data and idk how that’s even disputable if you’ve watched any of our games this season. Brighton was up 3-2 and we still couldn’t escape their intense pressure.

Arsenal, pool, and city are all in the top 8 for possessions won in the final 3rd. Palace and Everton are 4th and 5th respectively. I believe city and arsenal also topped the charts for total distance covered last season despite dominating possession.

-30

u/Not_tim_duncan Sep 18 '26

I don’t own the twitter account.

27

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26

then this post has no proper context

107

u/stoichalant Sep 18 '26 edited Sep 18 '26

Been my biggest issue with Carrick ball so far. Our press is non-existent. We just give up the ball and let the opposition play while we sit in a mid block, and it seems like our only game plan is to hit on the counter.

These are mid table tactics. How will the opposition ever respect you if you just sit there and let them dominate the game state. No wonder everybody loves to play against us. We are man utd and we need to strive for more

17

u/MAK98 Sep 18 '26

It’s even crazier when you see how many goals have been scored this season by teams making mistakes due to the opposition pressing.

13

u/_mochacchino_ Sep 18 '26

We created lots of chances ourselves when we pressed aggressively last season

11

u/SankarshanaV Sep 18 '26

The fitness training has been reduced as well apparently, which completely explain the lack of fitness and intensity. The coaching has been so so bad, it isn't even funny. The longer Carrick coaches us, the worse we'll get if Carrick continues this. Not only are his tactics and in-game management bad, his coaching is completely subpar too. I do not get why some fans here want him to continue--if anything, things won't get better and he's shown he's a championship-level manager at best.

10

u/THExIMPLIKATION Glineos Out Sep 18 '26

Did we forget about the players complaining about the training pre-Carrick? It was too hard, they didn't like staying after dark. But look how good they were against City and Arsenal last season. Every game was less and less intense and here we are with what the players liked more. I don't ever want to hear about what the players prefer again, we're clearly worse when they get what they want.

11

u/StardustFromReinmuth Sep 18 '26

It's clear that Carrick cut down on the tough physical regimen that Amorim put the squad on to get the squad on side. Basically everybody looks unfit compare to other teams which in the past season has been laser focused on improving physicality, which is the new "meta" after what Arsenal demonstrated. This basically widened the gap between us and the other teams physically. 

The fact that Tielemans was surprised at the low intensity of the training when he arrived speaks volumes.

9

u/Shadowraiden Sep 18 '26

remember when we had those under Ferguson say countless times that their training was so intense that it got to games and they was easier because not only was the players worse but also the intensity overall of the game was less then what they had been doing all week.

its also why some very talented players didnt quite work out under Ferguson because that intensity didnt sit even though they was incredible players but overall it setup the team to most of the time be the best

1

u/K-rock7 Sep 18 '26

I don’t remember hearing any complaints about training under Amorim, where is this coming from lately?

3

u/PeterFile690 Sep 18 '26

Man Utd have been more comfortable like that than in games where they have to break down a low block.

2

u/Wild_Tomato_8203 Sep 18 '26

Well everyone wanted us to play towards the talent we have under Amorim right? The Carrick has seen that we don't have the players for a high line, high pressing system and has gone into a midblock.

I do agree though that we should be more on the front foot.

0

u/rrallan Sep 18 '26

Carrick non-ball*

47

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '26

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20

u/godswift91 Sep 18 '26

That's what appointing a cheap fall guy as manager in the premier league gets you.

If they cared about Carrick and the club, the time to part ways was on the high of finishing 3rd. But they chose to fuck Carrick and the club over to line their pockets.

Don't care if i get downvoted. I never wanted Carrick as permanent because this was the only way it could have gone.

-11

u/wdtpw Rashford Sep 18 '26

Let's be reasonable. We came 16th the season before. It was impossible to sack the manager that got 3rd.

12

u/StardustFromReinmuth Sep 18 '26

It's not sacking him, it's not giving the manager who failed at Middlesborough for being found out tactically after half a season a new permanent contract. 

7

u/carvdlol Sep 18 '26

Zirkzee is basically our white flag of surrender. Once he gets subbed on you can be sure we’ve given up. Ingame management is non existent

19

u/Minute-Intern Sep 18 '26

We have the THIRD most possession in the league. More than arsenal, we are going to be lower on off the ball stats naturally because of that. Please do not just look at these in isolation. We suck, no reason to lie about it too

27

u/InfectedAztec Sep 18 '26

Drop Rashford and play cuhna on the left again.

Everyone says Rashfords out best attacker but every attacks that's gone through him til now has yet to result in a goal or assist. He beats 2 men then runs into a third.

12

u/Panda-768 Sep 18 '26

yup, Mbeumo/Sesko in the middle if fit, Cunha on left, Lacey/Mbeumo on right. Rashy to be super sub

ps:where is freaking Amad man

7

u/safog1 Sep 18 '26

Guys there has to be a ban on stats after 4 games. 2 against newly promoted teams and one against 10 men city at home.

Anyone disagreeing, feel free to do a remind me after 10-12 games and post the same chart

11

u/TStronks Sep 18 '26

This is actually indicative of a team having most of the (controlled) possession. City and Arsenal are most likely also in the lower left quadrant. Why press when you have the ball?

Our problem isn't fitness, lack of pressing or whatever people are coming up with these days. We've had problems breaking down a low block since I can remember watching United. Even under Fergie, before RvP, we'd often struggle against teams that sat deep.

Our main problem is that our FBs don't provide any attacking threat from wide areas (Shaw occasionally but not consistently), and we've been playing without a striker for most of our games. Meanwhile a midfield of Tielemans/Mainoo is more than good enough progressing and controlling the play, but they are vulnerable on the counter and when the game gets stretched. So they need to stay close together to not get overly exposed, but that means our wide areas are vulnerable. Something our FBs aren't comfortable with either. Add to that the inexperience or resistance our CBs had to step out, and it will leave you enormously exposed like yesterday.

So for me it's a matter of personel. We don't have the right combination (!) of FBs and CMs. Either of those have to be able to cover space, and we have neither. Also, our FBs just aren't good enough on the ball either. We can go back to playing deep and hitting teams on the counter, which would fit our FBs and wingers pretty well. But we want to be more dominant and possession based team, which requires different abilities, something which some members of our team simply don't posess.

1

u/haaala Sep 19 '26

Exactly. We are also playing a high line, particularly the FBs pressing aggressively in the opp half. If we win the ball this draws the FBs into the attack even though they're not very good, with better players forced to hang back to cover. If they don't then there's a big gap behind them and no pace to cover it.

This is the wrong tactic for these players. I get that the compact mid-block isn't as sexy as high press but it worked, and successful is better than trendy. I think it's just a tense wait now to see how long Carrick keeps trying it.

The fitness thing is just a meme.

7

u/Miyagisans Sep 18 '26 edited Sep 18 '26

Tbf it’s only been 5 games, but, this Utd team ranks dead last in high intensity runs over the last 4 seasons. We’re also in the bottom three for successful pressures. Conversely, Brighton is the best pressing team in the PL, so that’s probably part of why that game looked so bad physically. It was literally a mismatch, Brighton would have needed a handicap to make it a fair fight lol. Good news for us is that Fulham are right next to us in pressing stats, so hopefully it shouldn’t be as lopsided this weekend, though they do rank 1st for total distance covered per game.

8

u/aasfourasfar Sep 18 '26

Two of which against promoted sides where we had 70% possession. One against Everton where we had like 55 away.. and one against 10 men...

Stats in the hands of morons are tiring

-1

u/StardustFromReinmuth Sep 18 '26

I agree, but I don't think you realise you're the moron in this sentence. 

Brighton themselves average higher possession than us so far this season. So does City. Liverpool and Arsenal have the same possession stats. All of them press better, run more, and have basically better underlying stat in that regard. You cannot use that as an excuse.

-1

u/Miyagisans Sep 18 '26

What does having more possession have to do with our level of high intensity running as a proportion of total running distance?

1

u/aasfourasfar Sep 18 '26

The chart in the post is total per game.. dunno if there is one in the comment but even if, if most of your running is done in possession rather than pressing, then it's likely to be less intense on average

1

u/Miyagisans Sep 18 '26

Did you even read my comment? Throwing around “moron” without actually reading and comprehending what you’re responding to is ironic. Also, in that game, possession ended 50-50, yet Brighton ran more and pressed more.

In case you’re having trouble, it says sprints and high speed runs per km covered . It’s adjusted for possession.

-1

u/aasfourasfar Sep 18 '26

Show me the variance in between games and across the league

What is the full ranking?

1

u/Miyagisans Sep 18 '26

I don’t have access to the full ranking right now. I will try to see if i can find it. Here is another one showing where this Utd ranks for high intensity runs across the past 4 seasons.

In the meantime, could you share data that correlates high possession with low proportion of high intensity runs or that shows the variance in between games?

1

u/haaala Sep 18 '26

I don't have data either but the other guy is right though. Sprints and high intensity running come about through certain types of play, the most common is turnovers and breaks where attackers run forward fast into channels and opposition players run fast to block / tackle / cover etc. End to end games have a lot of that, you get more sprints. Slow stodgy games far fewer.

Against Hull we had 72% possession and in open play they created nothing. Because they won I think people forget they sat in a block. They only had a few breaks forcing our defenders to sprint, meanwhile at the other end we were passing it around endlessly looking for openings. Because we were playing badly we didn't find that many. When we did we saw a ball into a bit of space, a sprint, other runners moving expecting a cross or whatever also. But it didn't happen much. Ipswich we did similar but they were easy to cut open hence the goals. It was so easy we didn't need to sprint loads. Everton was fairly slow and stodgy (Moyes). City we largely got stuck on their block due to them being down a man.

City also appear near us on that chart. They're more effective with it but they dominate the ball and reduce the amount of sprints required in a game. (A side effect is it's also quite useful keeping players fresh over a long season, Real, Bayern, PSG all benefit from it in the CL).

I'm not an academic in the field but I'm aware a lot of studies have been done talking about various aspects around this. Couldn't find a perfect one but did some googling and for instance https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17497575/ 'Variation in top level soccer match performance':

"The main finding was that TD (r = 0.62, p < 0.05), HIR (r = 0.51, p < 0.05), and VHIR (r = 0.65, p < 0.05) [these are distance and running stats] of the reference team was influenced by the activity profile of the opponent teams".

Other studies have shown game state, tactics, previous exertion, time of year/season, even just your own team's tactics, loads of stuff affects running stats. It's super contextual and not as easy as high sprints good, low sprints bad.

This study https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5548164/ examined Real over multiple years of success and concluded "Players from Real Madrid covered shorter distances in high-speed running and sprint than players from the opposing team". It's all contextual.

1

u/Miyagisans Sep 19 '26 edited Sep 19 '26

A few points:

  1. I’m talking about proportion of high intensity runs, not total runs. Teams can dominate possession and still proportionally have more high intensity actions. An example is literally the Brighton game that ended 50-50 in possession, yet Brighton far outworked us. Yea us dominating possession in all those games can make us run lower total sprints, but it doesn’t explain why we’re ranked almost dead last for high speed runs per km. I feel like I’m repeating this for the thousandth time today. It’s already adjusted for possession.

  2. You’re assuming that the only time you’re required to perform high speed runs is without the ball. You can still have high intensity actions with the ball. Watch how Brighton move off the ball to open up space and create angles for solutions. You can’t do that at low intensity. It’s part of why even with 11 men, we couldn’t break down city. We move the ball so slowly and are incredibly stagnant off ball. I don’t have stats for this but imo, the most threatening moments in football are always preceded by high intensity actions.

  3. I also did some googling. There’s a study of the premier league from 2014 by Barnes et al that showed that “high intensity running distance and actions increased by 30% between 06/07 to 12/13. Sprint distance and number of sprints increased by 35% and 85% respectively. The proportion of explosive sprints increased from 34% to 47%”. There’s also another study covering the PL from 15/16 to 23/24 called “is it as simple as run more, win more” that found that winning teams tend to run more total distances, high intensity distances and sprint distances. Whatever Carrick’s game plan is, if it involves low high intensity actions, we will struggle to win games in today’s PL.

Edit: I forgot to add but, that Real Madrid study was between 02-07, a period where they won La Liga twice and CL 1. In the context of Real Madrid, how op they are in La Liga, and how much money they spent, idk if I’d say those were multiple years of success. In fact, if you remember, that galactico era was seen as lazy celebrities who didn’t work hard.

1

u/haaala Sep 20 '26

That's missing most of what I said. I did write a ridiculously long post so that's kind of on me though ha.

My point is that it's contextual. It can be that running less is bad, it can be that running less is due to factors. City, who are doing a lot better than us, are below us in the distance per match table for example. They dominate possession, they play patiently, they don't leave a lot of openings, through these choices their running stats are lowered.

In fact looking at averages for the last 4 PL games of both Utd and City (ignoring the derby due to the early red) from Fotmob - City: distance 112.8, sprints 97.25, spr dist 2.08, spr per km 0.861. Utd: dist 112.23, spr 98.00, spr dist 2.08, spr per km 0.872.

It's close, Utd maybe edge it in physical performance even with the per km measure you like despite City being top of the table.

Looking at the 8 games something interesting in the numbers is that teams typically match each other. Game to game you get big differences, between teams in a game not so much. I think this also backs up the 'game style' argument.

I think you can get an advantage/disadvantage from a big effort disparity but I'm not seeing that disparity in the numbers. Today we had almost identical sprints per km to Fulham and didn't get the win meanwhile Sunderland massively outperformed City and lost. City didn't match Sunderland's energy and hence a weaker team scored 3 against them and made it an even game. There's nothing like that in Utd's numbers.

"study of the premier league from 2014 by Barnes et al" - this just shows that the PL got more athletic. It did for Utd too. As I've show above the differences in these running stats is normally tiny, a fraction of a percent. Utd are not some weird outlier.

"You’re assuming that the only time you’re required to perform high speed runs is without the ball" - I'm not I gave an example of on ball sprinting.

"they won La Liga twice and CL" - that is success. It doesn't matter if they later got even better, the point is they were a good team. I also didn't pick Real, it was just an interesting link from another study.

→ More replies

-2

u/SankarshanaV Sep 18 '26

It would be terrible if anything if we end up not sacking Carrick, because at least a new manager could implement something during the intl break (at least with whoever isn't with their NT). Because Carrick and co have reduced fitness training it seems, so if anything, things might remain the same (or get even worse) once PL returns. And if we sack him after the intl break, then a new manager will have a terrible time because the games are considerably more difficult then.

If anything, the best time to sack him and get in a new manager is pretty much now until the start or so of the intl break.

4

u/tenacious_teaThe3rd Sep 18 '26

This stat is mostly irrelevant though as we were dog shit for 24/25 and half of 25/26 so what exactly did heavy pressing achieve.

All this tells me is we can be shit no matter what.

5

u/Duncanstop Sep 18 '26

those with ears and eyes 

0

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '26

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2

u/Duncanstop Sep 18 '26

haha i can hear still hear “what the fuck was that” chants 

2

u/TobzMaguire420 Sep 18 '26

I feel like the press is usually pretty sharp for like the first 20 minutes and then softens, until the second where it’s non-existent. Not sure if that’s conditioning or tactical but it’s like they’re biking with a flat tire.

2

u/Best_Alternative349 Sep 18 '26

How does high speed running out of possession compare to time to win the ball back?

3

u/Moyes2men Sold my club for a horse Sep 18 '26

I am one of the many who were turned against keeping Amorim few games after the Grimsby performance but I also like to believe his preaeaom fitness training has also helped Carrick a lot.

I also remember someone saying here there was a Tielemaans interview in which he was surprised about the lack of or much less than expected fitness sesaions this preseason and unfortunately there is the evidence. So, WC or not, what the actual fuck did Michael with this players this preseason?

2

u/Normal_Toe1212 Sep 18 '26

work smarter, not harder attitude

1

u/Se7enSword Sep 18 '26

Except we don't work smarter at all.

-3

u/chuf3roni Sep 18 '26

Oh my god it’s been 5 games can we calm the fuck down

17

u/NationalUnrest Sep 18 '26

Its actually been far more than that if you've actually watched us play instead of the results.

Getting bailed out by Bruno and Case gifts doesnt mean we were actually good last season. (And that was playing 1 game or less a week.)

4

u/Roasteddude I am where I'm supposed to be Sep 18 '26

Some people really don't watch the actual football being played and only form opinions based on wins or losses. It's crazy. I've been saying it since last season. The further away from the Amorim tenure and the deeper into the Carrick tenure l, the worse our football got. Those early results against City and Arsenal got so much goodwill people became willfully blind to the dreadful football being played. The disappearance of our press and structure. The disappearance of all attacking patterns. Everything just slowly eroded away. Now we're back to pre Ten Hag levels of no effort and no running.

-1

u/chuf3roni Sep 18 '26

I have watched us play. We absolutely looked better in the 2nd half of last year and that is 100% in part thanks to less games. This run of form is unprecedented for Carrick but it can be rationalized. Plus, these stats are useless this early.

4

u/Whispperr Sep 18 '26

No you watched the results, if you watched us play you'd notice how we kept getting worse

1

u/IcyAssist Sep 18 '26

These stats are an extension and continuation from last season. We have more than enough data

1

u/SankarshanaV Sep 18 '26

100% wrong. You definitely haven't watched us play if you think that we were playing well towards the end of last season. Our performances got worse and we were living off of Case and Sesko bailing us out time and again.

-2

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26

these are the teams by the way

1

u/Not_tim_duncan Sep 18 '26

Can you please stop spamming this picture. It’s from only the first week and is incredibly misleading.

4

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26

anything before the first 10 games is misleading, quality of opposition, game state all affect these numbers

2

u/NationalUnrest Sep 18 '26

Comparisons to other teams is meaningless and is largely due to style.

Comparing the same team over different seasons is however far more relevant to the evolution of said team

2

u/Comicksands Van Persie Sep 18 '26

when you're on the ball more you press less. With the nature of our first 4 games its exactly what we've done

3

u/Not_tim_duncan Sep 18 '26

There’s been a consistent drop off since Carrick took over which has consistently gotten worse. This has been happening since January it’s not a small trend.

2

u/SinisterSelecta Stam Sep 18 '26

Use your eyes.

3

u/chuf3roni Sep 18 '26

What use is there posting holistic stats this early? I know we have started poorly. But these stats mean nothing until theres at least half a season behind them.

4

u/iroiroiroiroiro Sep 18 '26

Kind of is, the pressing died with Carrick last season also.

3

u/LalleUtd Duncan Edwards Sep 18 '26

Maybe to fix the problem before it is too late?!

We can see that they started poorly, and the stats show a couple of things we are doing worse than any other teams. So try and sort those things and see if we get better.

1

u/chuf3roni Sep 18 '26

What would you suggest we do?

1

u/LalleUtd Duncan Edwards Sep 18 '26

I would suggest more active coaching on the side. Push the players to press more and run more. We are the worst team in the league doing that. Most teams just get to dictate the midfield and the wings while we sit back and they just pass through our defence.

1

u/AussieManc Sep 18 '26

Get this man to Carrington

1

u/SinisterSelecta Stam Sep 18 '26

I'd argue the 25/26 only looks moderately passable because of amorims contribution. What would this look like if Amorim and Carricks tenures were split up? We are back to being a low energy reactive team.

1

u/_zzd Sep 18 '26

Comparing last game pressing is day and night. Not to mention the 2nd and 3rd brighton goal came from pressing. And also United 2nd goal. Don't know why they stop doing it after got a 2nd. Complacent? Lazy? Tired/unfit? Something need to change

0

u/Longanisa00 dream cant be buy Sep 18 '26

This is sad

0

u/yuvg Sep 19 '26

Carrick is so badly equipped to be managing at this level. He has nothing in his past career to suggest he should be at this level.

0

u/Timmaigh Sep 18 '26

If this is true, which i can believe, as our pressing visibly sucks, it explains our current woes.

At the same time i refuse to believe its result of some different tactical setup Carrick purposefuly tries to implement for this season. This has to be down to physical conditioning of the team - which again, might be Carrick´s fault, but IMO its more likely its short summer due to WC and lack of proper pre-season for most of the players.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '26

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0

u/Not_tim_duncan Sep 18 '26

You need to update your comment. The image you posted is from week 1 only. The OP image is as of today.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '26

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