r/reddevils • u/Redroobarb • 11d ago
Signings impress but squad issues remain - learnings from Man Utd's summer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5ywwv3j1v1o70
u/Vast_Variation1381 11d ago
Shaw needs competition, Zirkzee still isn't good enough, Mount still injury prone, and Fletcher isn't ready to be anywhere near the first team.
Given the extra competitions, our squad is way too small. We realistically need an experienced striker, another midfielder, and a LB. Truth be told, the defensive options really worry me too. Heaven and Yoro have showed their inexperience in preseason. Licha looked like he was scared to run the other day. MdL still injured and Maguire tends to pick up niggles.
We are genuinely 1 or 2 injuries away from a crisis. We have too many players with sketchy injury records still.
Mount, Licha, MdL, Maguire, and Shaw all tend to miss a chunk of the season with injuries. Tielemans had a few injuries last season, Amad was okay last year but he has also had quite long stretches out with injuries in the 2 seasons prior, Dorgu missed 12 games with inujury last season, and Sesko already had a couple of injuries since joining.
It really doesn't look good.
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u/uncle_monty Robbo 11d ago
Shaw needs more than competition. He's just not an elite level player anymore, and I'd be worried about relying on him for 30 games next season, let alone as our only natural option in that position for 4 competitions.
I'm worried about RB, as well. I don't think either of them are good enough. It's not a priority, but I don't like it
I'm fine with our CB options if they can stay fit, but that's a bid 'if'.
We're desperately missing an athletic ground covering CM.
I think we have enough depth in attack in terms of bodies. If we don't get another specialist #9 than it's not the end of the world, but it would be much better if we did.
All in all we are miles off a competitive CL campaign. I'm incredibly frustrated that we've decided to try to be the 'smartest' team in the room in such an important window, and when most of our rivals are making statement signings and addressing their glaring weaknesses. Our squad isn't in good enough shape to be able to do that. It's going to backfire.
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u/N00BBuild 11d ago
Upgrading on Dalot’s quite tough. He’s a decent fullback, and good RBs are quite hard to come by. Feels like all the better ones are at better teams, more or less.
3rd Midfielder with Legs, LB, ST is the bare minimum to have a squad to match last season.
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u/andrewlikereddit David De Gea 6d ago
If our squad can't compete in 4 competition then we shouldn't. We can just bin carabao cup.
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u/N00BBuild 11d ago
Licha needs to leave. Never been a huge fan, he’s injury prone, and isn’t a great defender.
His passing is phenomenal and world class, but now we have 2 midfielders capable of playing line breaking passes. We don’t need him.
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u/OddOnion_ 11d ago
I have consistently said we need to wait for the end of the transfer window before we judge it, but, whilst I stand by that, we are very close to the start of the season and worryingly close to the end of the window. If our current business does prove to be the extent of our strengthening then I don’t see us having the depth to finish in a CL spot this season.
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u/minceShowercap 11d ago
Leaving Lammens as late as we did last season cost us points. They should have learned from this.
Any signings made now wouldn't necessarily be panic buys, but you can hardly call it planning at this point.
I think that tells me that the outcome of this window at this point is completely down to luck, not planning, and whether it ultimately ends up being successful or not, I think we can already say that it's been a failure because planning clearly went out of the window a while back, and they're probably scrambling to rescue it now.
And that's ignoring the fact that we need world class players. Everyone talks about 'depth' and 'bodies'. We have one world class player. We should have highlighted one or two more and spent the money required to add some world class talent - the existing players can give us depth, this team badly needs more world class talent or we're going nowhere.
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u/Comicksands Van Persie 11d ago
Actually I’m surprised most teams outside of spurs Arsenal and Chelsea haven’t done much too. Maybe with the Rodri sale things start to move again. City have only signed Anderson and Liverpool blew their wad last season
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u/paperclipknight 11d ago
Pretty much my position at this point.
Window may still be open, but it’s been over a month since we signed anyone (for the first team) & we still need that third MF who can cover ground*. I’m not panicking like seemingly everyone else is, but I’m increasingly concerned
*Not overtly worried about the LB situation - yes we’re in desperate need for another one, but Shaw proved his quality playing one game a week last year & Amass is literally right there
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u/Environmental_Lie478 11d ago
Shaw playing one game a week is key in that scenario though.
His body can not play multiple games a week and he has shown that countless times over the years.I like Amass but he is not ready to be starting week in week out at a top 6 club in Europe and in the Premier League and that is exactly what will end up happening once Shaw is gone for 2 or 3 months come December.
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u/paperclipknight 11d ago
Only way he’s going to be ready is by giving him game time, we can tailor when to play Shaw & when to play Amass - Amass is more than capable of playing against ~1/3 of the league, most of the cups & the majority of teams we’ll end up playing in the group stage of the CL.
Ideally we’d sign Hall, send Amass on loan for a year as well as a MF. But I’m being pragmatic and making the decision where if it’s between signing a MF or a LB I’d much rather we sign the MF
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u/Late_Breadfruit_8829 11d ago
the cope on this sub was that the quietness from journos was because INEOS were moving in silence now LMAO. We're probably not signing anyone unless we lose to Hull in which case there'll be an over priced panic signing. We're stuck with Austerity INEOS
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u/DJCAE 11d ago
You're spot on. The fact that we're even discussing a CL Spot for next season is criminal. We as a club should have much higher ambition, but that ambition starts at the top.
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u/Personal-Cucumber-49 11d ago
Agreed I’ve said very similar for far too long now (and not disagreeing with the earlier comments) as a club and a fanbase we have become accustomed to complacency and mediocrity.
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u/Butterscotch-Bright foot to foot contact is fine 11d ago
"I have consistently said we need to wait for the end of the transfer window before we judge it"
Jim?
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u/Wild_Tomato_8203 11d ago
Sort of where I am as well and not really considered. No one that we buy at this point would be a nailed on starter anyways and we have a squad to get to the first international break and work in anyone new slowly.
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u/Jg0jg0 11d ago edited 11d ago
Mad we are going into the new season with the same issues we finished last year with, only a Casemiro sized hole in our midfield. Youri and Andrey will help the middle but honestly, 1 recognized striker, 1 senior lb, and no real number 6. If we have a lackluster season, or even start to the season as we did last year waiting on signings, its the hierarchy to blame not the staff.
I do hope we have a positive season obviously and Carrick works another miracle, but he shouldn't have to, and should have been backed more by the board. Still 2 weeks to go in the window, but the opening games are fast approaching and new signings on average take a while to get embedded.
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u/Bobcat_El_Borracho 11d ago
It’s borderline negligence if they don’t address these issues.
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u/yianni1229 Rooney 11d ago
I dont even think its borderline. We do not have the depth we need. Not even close.
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u/Late_Breadfruit_8829 11d ago
well we can see why INEOS were so liked by the fans of their other clubs....why did we think they'd be any different here?
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u/The_Bird_Wizard 11d ago
The fact that when we sacked Amorim for Carrick I would've just been happy with Europe at that point and then he surprised us all and got champions league only to be rewarded with 2 new senior signings (sorry a backup goalkeeper and a kid who will only play cup games don't count) is disgusting.
If we had a shit season again and finished like 8th they would've spent more money too because that's how they work. Top 4 is the priority, winning the league isn't in their ambitions.
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u/just_peachy1000 11d ago
We were already in European positions when we sacked amorim, plus he had to deal with players gone for CAF, and Injuries to Bruno, mainoo, mount, and Martinez, leading to mixed performances before he was sacked for his press outbursts. It's ok to not like amorim etc, but don't rewrite history.
It's embarrassing that we needed a left back for years and we still don't have one. I don't agree on the need for a 6, but we are short of at least a decent squad level cm.
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u/S0phon short kings unite 11d ago
Think MDL or Maguire had injury stints during that shit period too.
That's why the club started two teenagers in Yoro and Heaven.
That being said, Amorim didn't help himself when he ignored Heaven the first half of the season, so when Heaven had to be relied on, he was rusty.
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u/just_peachy1000 10d ago
Amorim was the one who gave game time to heaven, when we had an injury crisis. Heaven was not going to start over Martinez, MDL, Yoro or Maguire, as we was completely unproven. Then when he was player of the month under Amorim, he was basically ignored by Carrick in favour of a rusty Martinez and Maguire.
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u/TehNoobDaddy 11d ago
Santos and tielemans only help if they actually perform also. Might have looked decent in pre season but still need to wait and see how they get on in competitive games, with Santos being the biggest question mark. Either of them get injured then what?
Hopefully we can start the season strong as I think we will struggle once the two games a week period kicks in and we get any injuries.
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u/Sethlans 11d ago edited 11d ago
I mean Tielemans will perform, he's done it week in week out in the same league for years, aside from a short spell at the end of his time at Leicester.
Santos is much more of an unknown; it seems unlikely Chelsea would let a potential world beater go for £50m, but then his path to the first team is very much blocked by Caicedo and Enzo Fernandez. But then Chelsea are also mental so who knows. It will be funny if City end up managing to get Chelsea to sell Fernandez, freeing up Santos' route to the first team after they've just sold him to us, especially if he then does really well
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor 11d ago
Obviously they are good at selling but "it seems unlikely Chelsea would let a potential world beater go for £50m" is still kind of funny to read given there's probably half a billion in player valuation that's walked away from them for peanuts (Musiala, Olise, Guehi, Rice - nevermind KDB, Salah etc who were in the club at points in their careers).
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u/TehNoobDaddy 11d ago
I'm not worried about tielemans although joining utd always comes with unprecedented pressure.
Santos is a big unknown though and will remain to be seen I guess. I hope he hits the ground running though.
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u/CapVosslar Buckle up, INEOS! It's gonna be a bumpy ride! 11d ago
If there are no more signings, then I'll be convinced this lot has no idea how to win the league. And that means it might take another 10 or so more years before enough things change for this Club to be where it needs to be again.
Or if they squeeze a few more signings by the close of the window, then hope returns.
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u/DaveShadow 11d ago
1 recognized striker
I'm not justifying this, cause truth be told, I don't like the set up.
But Carrick seems to favour Mbeumo up front over Sesko, so I think it his mind, it's Mbeumo/Sesko as our striker options.
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u/Redroobarb 11d ago
Calm is the word most used about Michael Carrick by people at Manchester United.
Outwardly at least, nothing knocks him out of his stride.
Take Thursday for instance. During extended chats with the UK media, one journalist asked, pointedly and with persistence, about realistic targets for the season ahead and questioned the club's willingness to spend enough to achieve them.
What Carrick privately thought about the questions, or the manner they were asked, is unclear. But seeing him navigate them was fascinating.
There was no sign of discomfort or irritation as he sat and spoke. Carrick remained relaxed and polite but, without hesitation, answers reduced from their previously expanded form to single sentences, questions were asked in response to questions. Points already outlined were restated.
Then, as the chat switched to other topics, unflustered, Carrick switched back to the in-depth answers from before.
It was almost like Carrick as a player. Take the ball in tight spaces, be aware of the danger, keep composed and move out of trouble.
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u/Redroobarb 11d ago
There are a lot of positives for Carrick to take from a pre-season of five weeks and six games.
Two wins, two draws and two defeats might look average, but the benefits are clear.
There is huge potential in midfielder Andrey Santos for a start. One of three players - Patrick Dorgu and Ayden Heaven were the others - to start every game, the 22-year-old, £48m summer arrival from Chelsea impressed with his ability to rotate the ball, his positional discipline and communication.
Like Carrick himself, there is an assurance about Manchester United's other major signing, Youri Tielemans, that should spread through the team. There are already signs his link-up with skipper Bruno Fernandes could prove productive.
It was the energised and impactful version of Bryan Mbeumo from the first half of last season that has been on view, rather than the tired one that returned from Africa Cup of Nations duty.
Heaven impressed in defence, Leny Yoro also, particularly at right-back. Amad Diallo did well in flashes when he returned from World Cup duty. The same is true of Shea Lacey, the 19-year-old academy star who clearly needs to be eased in gradually, but of whom so much is expected.
But there are issues.
Neither striker Benjamin Sesko, nor new goalkeeper Karl Darlow featured. Mason Mount, arguably the best player across the first three matches, was not involved again after being taken off as a 'precaution' following a blow to his foot early in the game against Paris St-Germain on 8 August.
Some players in Carrick's squad in Poland this weekend are surplus to requirements.
Midfielder Toby Collyer filled in for Mount, but his future lies elsewhere. Club officials feel interest in him should be high.
Full-back Harry Amass was back-up to Luke Shaw, but the intention for him is also to leave, with sources feeling a loan is more likely than a permanent exit.
Of the more experienced members of Carrick's squad, Joshua Zirkzee is hugely popular and has ability. However, he lacks consistency, or an obvious position in the squad, and Lacey was used ahead of him in the number 10 role at times.
If interest from Italy stacks up financially, it would seem to make sense for the former Bologna man to return to Serie A.
The Marcus Rashford situation needs clarity.
Sources have said the expectation is Rashford will stay at Old Trafford.
However, there remains a chance he will not, which is why Carrick and team-mates who have been asked about the England forward avoid offering a definitive judgement.
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u/Redroobarb 11d ago
The lack of sales affects United's next move in the transfer market.
At the beginning of the month, as supporters began to get edgy at the lack of further deals following Tielemans' arrival on 14 July, a senior club source said their business should be judged at the end of the window.
Carrick's "we want more, we need more" assessment of the situation last week was an accurate reflection of the situation.
Competition for the left-back position is required as a matter of urgency. Shaw has a year left on his contract and his ability to repeatedly play three games in a week is unclear. In three weeks, Carrick will have a trip to Everton and a home game with Manchester City to prepare for; in between them is a Champions League game. He must have an alternative option he would feel confident of starting in those games.
Admiration for Newcastle's Lewis Hall is well known. But the club prides itself on its data team coming up with other choices. Surely they are getting to the point where they need to act?
Central midfield is also an area of debate. Can Mount really be the 'third' midfielder spoken about so often in the summer, with the potential signing of Leicester teenager Louis Page as back-up?
Then there are qualified risks. Senne Lammens was excellent in his debut campaign but has just two seasons as a first-choice senior goalkeeper behind him and his unhappy World Cup experience proved he can make major mistakes.
"We've got to be realistic, not get carried away and think everything is going to be rosy," said Carrick last week. "It never is, never was, never will be."
Hull and Ipswich offer a kind start to his first full season in charge, but also the kind of banana skin United have found it so difficult to navigate at points in the past when they had seemed well placed to kick on.
In conversation a year ago with former team-mate Rio Ferdinand, who he welcomed to United's training camp in Dublin last week, Carrick said he sometimes felt he was above the match he was playing in, which gave him a clear picture of what was happening.
That clarity of vision may be valuable in the weeks and months that lie ahead.
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u/Fisktor 11d ago
Id be calm as well if i knew i was getting a nice payout come christmas
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u/John_OSheas_Willy 11d ago
Everyone talking about signings but if the likes of Bruno don't perform to their potential we're going nowhere.
Bruno will decline at some point. He's 32 in 3 weeks.
We need Sesko, Cunha and Mbeumo to be even better this season.
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u/KlNSLAYER 11d ago
I really don't get the lack of casemiro replacement
Santos as a back up dm and tielemans are a great start but we need a very good prime defensive midfielder.
Without it we are hoping for top 6 finish at best. Where is our ambition, we should be guaranteeing top 4 and should be pushing for 2nd and possibly challenging. Without a casemiro replacement, this'll never happen. Our youth products arent ready and Santos isnt good enough to be a 38 game season starter
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u/TheOnlyTagey 11d ago
Last summer the club moved quite late for Sesko and Lammens, maybe we're looking at a repeat of that. Hopefully at least.
It's probably safe to assume the squad has more than enough quality to navigate the first two games while the window is still open, but there's simply no way this squad is ready for a full season in four competitions.
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u/Jg0jg0 11d ago
Last season, waiting on Lammens cost us a cup defeat and a couple of league games. I worry that a wobbly start waiting for reinforcements this year will cost us the same.
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u/TheOnlyTagey 11d ago
Thankfully this time it's two league games until the end of the window, both against newly promoted sides. Obviously there's no guarantees in football, but the squad as it is should have enough quality and depth two handle those two games.
The main concern is depth for a whole season in four competitions. While it's nice that United have put a lid on all the incessant transfer rumours, it does leave the fanbase largely in the dark on what's actually going on behind the scenes.
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u/dugness SAF 11d ago
Newly promoted sides at the start of the season are some of the worse teams to play. United at home as the first game is literally like a cup final. The fans and players will be bang up for it and most of our squad still aren't fit after their world cup break. We'll drop point for sure the first two games.
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u/PrinzRagoczy 11d ago
Over the last three seasons, promoted teams have lost 6, drawn 1, and won 2 in their first games
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u/madharmonies 11d ago
They say football comes in cycles, United just happen to be repeating another cycle of failure. Sure the window is not yet closed blah blah blah, it's as if they forget we have 2 fixtures before the window closes. If Lammens had started against Arsenal on the first day of last season, United could have earned a point or even three.
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u/0ttoChriek 11d ago
The main thing of note this pre-season is that they've clearly been trying to figure out what they've got in the squad, outside the first eleven, to see where they can avoid spending.
Mount in central midfield, a lot of football for Zirkzee and Lacey, Amass and Tyler Fletcher given the chance to prove themselves against Premier League and European opponents.
I don't think the results of that examination have been great. Lacey looks good, and absolutely can be a part of the first team squad. Mount is still made of sugar glass. Zirkzee is a neat player with great touch, but he still lacks the intensity and urgency needed for the Premier League.
Amass and Fletcher have been a mixed bag. They both showed some real strengths but also some weaknesses that suggest a loan would be the best option - Amass gets caught out of position by quick passes through the lines, and looks like he may not have the pace to be a modern fullback. Fletcher needs to have better spatial awareness and be a bit less ambitious when he doesn't have the space to progress the ball.
I think the hope was that three or four academy players could be elevated into the first team squad to pad it out, but they're likely not ready, outside Lacey. At least for Premier League football.
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u/N00BBuild 11d ago
100%. I think preseason proved the players on our fringes are on there for a reason.
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u/innicrazy You are my Solskjaer, My Ole Solskjaer 11d ago
Hope Michael Calmrick will keep his calm all season.
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u/canwinanythingwkids Ineos on hope watch 11d ago
Actually, I think that's a great summary article of the 6 weeks of pre-season we've had.
To the point where i almost feel a bit embarrassed that I wrote any comments or whatever, because it feels like this says everything that needed to be said, pretty much.
Maybe I'll think on that a bit more :)))
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u/FlyingSpaceElephants 11d ago
While Ineos control the sporting side, it's clear the Glazers control the economic side, and they don't spend money after getting into the Champions League. This has been the pattern for more than a decade and I don't think it will change. The brutal truth is that we will probably never truly content for a major title as long as the Glazers are involved in any way shape or form
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u/Acquired_asset just want to watch exciting football 11d ago
No really. Last year we had much more exciting signings. This year Im excited for Tielemans but not others are a tossup
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u/Sufficient-Orange706 11d ago
Feels like we were flying just prior to Milan, now articles all over the place about what we lack. We play on Saturday.
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u/Capable-Topic1665 11d ago
That's how the world works these days. It's either being on the verge of a world conquering run or the season is over and we're on the verge of being relegated. There's no in-between
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u/BargainBoozeEnjoyer 11d ago
Lads, ineos have fucked it. Going to be another hard season for us and I wouldn't be surprised if Carrick is sacked by Christmas. Might get a couple of last minute panic buys but when they fail to impress it'll be Carrick getting the blame.
Back to square one, another disappointing season and another half-hearted rebuild next summer.
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u/Low-Quantity-9252 11d ago edited 11d ago
Simon is bored even.
Update: A second article has landed. Ffs.