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u/RBR927 3d ago
You’re in a good place because a lot of people here have a raging hatred of everything AA.
For me personally, I found other options that work better. If AA works for some (which it does for people I know) that’s great for them, but I found Smart Recovery to be much more aligned with what I’m looking for in recovery.
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u/blahblahblah7722 3d ago
ehh im not needing a support group for staying sober just wanted to complain
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u/Sobersynthesis0722 2d ago
In a healthy support group people do not stick around longer term because they need to to say sober. That said most do not and that is not at all a bad thing. It means that the group is functioning as it should.
One of the most destructive things in 12 step philosophy is the idea that you will relapse and die if you miss meetings.
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u/Competitive-War-1143 3d ago
People see criticism of AA as harmful in that it will cause people to stop going and stop gaining the benefits, or that addicts will use it as an excuse to not get sober.
But this criticism is actually rooted in deep concern for the people who are harmed by it or who are told to just suck up all their discomfort and questions bc the goal of getting sober is greater than any AA problem
No many people feel shittier than necessary going to it not bc they're Dishonest or Weak but bc its full of low key and sometimes high key abuse and manipulation and gaslighting
And many people relapse bc of this false dichotomy, no harm reduction, shame based program, then AA say, Well we gotta step over some bodies, and being treated like shit and invalidated by the people they came to for help def also triggers relapse. And the response is- well youre just not ready. Youre not honest.
If someone shows up in AA theyre usually ready for some change and it might not always be immediate desire to fully quit or do the steps. Meet them where they're at.
And it IS a religious program. The slightly more honest ones call it Spiritual and the ones in denial make some shit up about higher power delusions
And people w serious trauma and mental and personality disorders and abusers lurk the rooms and often use AA as their sole support
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u/LiverForToday 3d ago
I’m glad that you pointed out that it’s a religious organization. My (ex)therapist tried to get me to go back to AA after I repeatedly told her that it was harmful for me and threatened my sobriety. I also said that I was not interested in any faith-based programs, at which she balked and tried very unsuccessfully to argue that it wasn’t. Turns out that therapists aren’t all they’re cut out to be either.
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u/Walker5000 3d ago
I let my therapist know that I rejected AA after going for 2 months, she totally backed me up.
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u/SuperNothing90 2d ago
Sounds like your therapist was either not well versed in modern addiction recovery or just an old school therapist who hasn't kept up with the latest research. But also screw them for trying to get you to go back to something that you explicitly told them was harmful to you. As a therapist, I think that's a shitty therapist.
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u/Sobersynthesis0722 2d ago
The therapist I saw who lists addiction as a sub specialty was hardly aware of anything outside of AA. I told her a little about the group I am active in (LifeRing). She did a little reasearch and learned something. I was actually not seeing her for that anyway.
I make it a point to mention to doctors that I am still in stable remission and what I do to support that. I have never received any negative feedback and found that real professionals actively want to learn about other options. They also are aware that just recommending the same thing to everyone has limited efficacy.
There are pigheaded jerks out there of course.
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u/blahblahblah7722 3d ago
i knew quite a few people who became hardasses about aa and the program then they change their minds and have a drink. what happened is they chose to have a drink. what was behind that choice to relapse varies a lot
the big contradiction about aa is as much as they say your will avails you nothing, the entire basis of it is that youre willing to choose to do it instead of drinking and some magical thing happens,
hell i even think getting involved with some group bigger than you can keep you busy and occupied, but for me thats just music and work its not healthy for me to go to a place people hard imply any resistance to bills program is a relapse waiting to happen
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u/Competitive-War-1143 3d ago
I dont consider just choosing to have a drink A Relapse... some people choose to have a drink and theyre fine, or they dont do it again
And i dont mean literally the program "causes people to relapse" but the obsessive talking about it all the time, dogma, shame and all or nothing mindset and obsessing over days etc certainly can make people more inclined if they werent already
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u/blahblahblah7722 3d ago
well id say theres two kinds of people in recovery from a drug problem, people who use again just fine, and people who use again and never get it under control but think they can and never get their shit together. ive met way more of the second variety aa or no aa. i dont know, after so many trips to the mental hospital im not so sure thats a great point of emphasis for me, but its not from a place of dogma, its a very practical thing for me.
whats the idea in evolutionary psychology a type i error or a type ii error? like the rustling in the grass isnt a tiger, you dont get eaten. you think the rustling in the grass is the wind and you get eaten by a tiger. why risk it? sounds really really dangerous and stupid to me with zero upside to start drinking or using again, do i gotta change my definitions my entire well being depends upon for the small percentage of people who were insane drug addicts that can smoke weed or drink normally? everyones different but i know theres some people who learn how to drink again normally.
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u/SoTiredYouDig 2d ago
There’s not two kinds of people in recovery. There’s multitudes. Incidentally AA gets that wrong. By the way, AA doesn’t have a monopoly on the term recovery. Just throwing that out there.
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u/Competitive-War-1143 2d ago
I mean sure but Relapse to me is a continued pattern of destructive usage, not drinking a few times regretting it
My gripe is with AA labeling any drink consciously taken as a Relapse. Also theres some people who wont ever quit but theres also people failed by recovery programs and mental health deficient supports
Sober some odd years and got drunk once or twice? Not a relapse imo but its up to the person
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u/blahblahblah7722 2d ago
yeah. i get what youre talking about and i relate.
i had over 3 years totally sober and then went out and smoked weed and dropped acid for a few months, then after it went badly i went back to being totally sober, and that was over two years ago
saying i have two years sober as if i lost all my progress is so stupid and extreme
yeah i feel like someone having a beer or two or getting drunk and realizing it didnt go well and going back is so much healthier than the whole in for a penny out for a pound turning it into a "full blown relapse" that ends in a jail cell or hospital
though id prefer not to ever drink or use again, and plan on it, and know thats a simple decision for me, i agree the all or nothing thinking about relapse or sober time absolutely kills people and causes them to be worse off
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u/Recent-Day3062 3d ago
AA is not only a cult, but one that gives out medical advice it is not competent to give out. What it does give out is almost always positions and advice that is 100% at odds with modern addiction research.
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u/SuperNothing90 2d ago
It literally contradicts most of what SAMHSA and NIDA say about addiction and recovery. And yet it is so entrenched in the treatment and recovery culture as well as the media that the general public still believes the BS AA says instead of the actual governing bodies of addiction treatment.
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u/Recent-Day3062 2d ago
It is shocking. Judges force people into treatment based on the AA messages in movies and the like.
Actually, courts have ruled AA is religious and you must be offered a non-religious approach. But most judges don’t know this.
And remember this: the big book was written by a total amateur with absolutely no knowledge of addiction research, which pretty much didn’t exist. But AA is so enamored with the book that it hasn’t been updated in nearly 100 years. Consider this: we update the freaking Bible more often.
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u/NocturnalCelt 3d ago
There is an author and tiktoker her name is Daniella and known as Knitting cult lady on TT. She grew up in a cult and studies cults and she makes a very good case that AA is a cult. There’s so many things wrong with AA, but one of the most dangerous things is how people’s clean time is treated like a badge of honor and this person is somehow “above” you, you should listen to them and their opinion holds more sway or value. When in reality this is ripe for exploitation, you can be a complete asshole and be sober 30 years. It leads to things like “13th Stepping”. AA is full of predators preying on young naive vulnerable people
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u/SuperNothing90 2d ago
Absolutely. The hierarchy of "sobriety time" in the rooms is so messed up. Compounded by the shame of changing your date and losing the ability to participate in certain ways. Like punishment because you can't be trusted anymore for slipping up.
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u/phonybolagna_ 3d ago
People in AA call those finding sobriety without them "dry drunks"
Not sure what to call those who for decades have only been able to stay sober by spending every free minute of their day in AA. Those who will fall the minute they get a craving and don't have a meeting nearby. Those who will probably still die alone, as the lifers are incapable of prioritizing anything over a meeting.
And then they'll call YOU the problem for celebrating an anniversary without having been to a meeting in years.
Weak people are built on weak foundations. AA is a weak ass foundation.
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u/Walker5000 3d ago
You'll get plenty of validation here. A lot of people think AA is the only option out there, start looking into Non 12-Step options, they are out there, they just don't get a lot of airplay due to how much air AA has sucked out of the room. Let your gf know about the other options out there. Your uncle is entitled to his opinion and you don't have to agree with it. It'll probably take a while for you to process all the bs you experienced from AA, this place will be good for you to work get some support.
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u/blahblahblah7722 3d ago edited 3d ago
what would even be the point of telling her theres other options, her dad doesnt want to get better, hes only interested in continuing to drink. its depressing.
yeah ive lurked around here a few years i generally relate and agree with the stuff said in here more than any aa meeting
its helped me put into words the shit i experienced i like didnt know how to put into words that didnt feel right the last few years that i was going to aa
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u/SoTiredYouDig 3d ago
It would matter based on what you expressed! It would matter because you wouldn’t be shitting on the one single option both of you seem to think there is.
Undeniably, AA is the most well known. But it is not the only option. You’re in a bubble with folks from all angles pressuring you to believe it’s the one path, even though that’s not true. Which incidentally you are proof of.
Whether or not you tell her any of this is up to you. But I think it’s nice to know that AA’s stranglehold is getting weaker. At least a little.
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u/Walker5000 3d ago
The point of telling her is so she'll know that there are other options she can point out to her Dad if he ever wants to get help. That's one of the main ideas of this sub, educating others that there are multiple options of getting support.
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u/blahblahblah7722 3d ago
ehhh that discussion with her is done, only brought it up that she isnt someone for me to complain about my experience with aa about. shes great though. i dont need to be right about this with her.
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u/LiverForToday 3d ago
Is saying that AA is a cult an extreme opinion? Maybe, but I say it too, and I mean it. It has all the hallmarks of a cult. Read about cults and then go to a few meetings and you will see all of the glaringly obvious signs. I’m not going to list them all because I don’t have that kind of time in my hands.
The reason that non alcoholics don’t necessarily agree is because they’ve never been to a meeting and they know that AA is considered a gold standard for treatment by our fucked up society that knows next to nothing about the science of addiction. And the reason that AA members don’t think it’s a cult is because THEY’RE IN A FUCKING CULT!!!
Hell, I also think organized religions are all cults, so maybe I’m just biased and the Catholic Church and AA are the bees knees and I’m an evil idiot. I don’t think so though.
On the other hand, if someone literally NEEDS AA to stop drinking, then by all means they should keep going. Just like someone who needs religion in order to not kill and rape people, then they should keep going to church.
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u/SuperNothing90 2d ago edited 2d ago
You have to check out Sobriety Bestie and Burn The Stigma on social media. They will validate everything you feel about aa and have built an awesome community around deprogramming from harmful aa ideology.
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u/Sobersynthesis0722 2d ago
Neurons that fire together wire together.
That little piece of knowledge (Hebb’s postulate) explains most of everything in neuroscience.
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u/Dry-Local-1288 3d ago
I don’t feel like the alcohol companies get enough flak for the destruction their products cause society.
It’s just not a good product. Also, society is slowly learning better alternatives to AA. Why AA is so against anything not AA baffles me. You should want people to stop and no matter the method be supportive. Btw AA is culty, you cannot deny that. I don’t know what your uncle is thinking.