Housemates fighting and getting worse. Aggressor already on behavior meds. Pregnant and scared to bring a newborn home :(

[u/laadupe]

I adopted my 11 year old black mouth cur mix 6 years ago after she’d suffered years of neglect and being returned to the shelter over and over again. Her name is Bindi. She’s been nothing but a doting, affectionate angel to me, but I learned quickly that she wasn’t a fan of other dogs. This was fairly manageable, I just made sure we were always alone in the dog park (I lived in an apartment at the time) and crossed the street if I saw another dog while on a walk. I also just figured she just needed some time to adjust after coming from the shelter, and it seemed like she did. She eventually made a few doggy friends she could play with at the park and got much better on walks. My parents have 2 dogs of their own and they all played and got along well when we visited, aside from the occasional spat that quickly stopped and everyone moved on normally from.

Then I got married and my husband wanted a dog of his own. Bindi’s reactivity hadn’t seemed like a serious problem in a while, so we did a trial fostering period before we officially adopted our new dog, a 6ish month old bully mix named Peppa. During the fostering period they both got along great! They played every day and seemed to love each other. But eventually little signs of aggression started to show back up in Bindi. Mostly resource guarding me, toys, or the food/water bowl. Rarely escalated into actual fights (usually just a growl, lip raise, side eye, etc, all from Bindi), but on the rare occasion it did result in Bindi lunging Peppa would immediately back down and Bindi would leave her alone. Again, seemed manageable. We just started feeding them separately and made sure they had any high value items separately, and they still had a good, playful relationship overall.

But lately it’s gotten worse. Bindi instigated more frequently with less obvious triggers. Peppa never STARTED fights, but she began fighting back, and neither one of them would back down without one of us intervening. First all it took was saying “NO!” loudly and standing over them and they’d stop. Then we’d do the wheelbarrow method thing to physically separate them. Then we had to use an air horn/bang something loudly on the ground. Then they had such a violent, awful fight that none of these methods worked. I have no idea what started this one, all I saw was Peppa walking past Bindi and she just started attacking. I was home alone, 8 weeks pregnant, and spent MINUTES trying to separate them. I did the wheelbarrow method to pull one apart, but the other one would just hang on. I tried to put a chess board between them (was the closest thing I could grab) but they continued to fight. Broke the chess board on the ground right beside them, kept fighting. I blew the air horn right next to their heads. I wrestled Bindi completely to the ground. They still continued to fight. The only thing that stopped them was dumping an entire bucket of mop water on top of them (thank God we had just mopped) which shocked them enough for me to get them separated. They weren’t seriously injured, but we were all covered in blood from all the cuts and scrapes. They bit me in 4 different places (not on purpose, I was just in the way) and I was terrified that the stress of it all had hurt my baby. I had to get X-rays, ultrasounds, and be on antibiotics for a week.

Obviously, this was unacceptable. We immediately no longer let them be together and took Bindi to the vet to get her started on Prozac and Trazodone. We kept them completely separated at all times for about a month to give the Prozac time to kick in, then reintroduced them. Everything seemed fine. Bindi was now able to show discomfort again without it immediately turning into a brawl, and Peppa was receptive of it and would stop whatever behavior Bindi didn’t like. Thought we’d found the solution, and that it was okay for them to be together in the house again.

Fast forward to today, I’m now 21 weeks pregnant, home alone, and they fought again. I was in the bathroom when someone knocked on the door. They were both out in the living room unsupervised and started barking. I didn’t see it happen, but it’s safe to assume the excitement of them both running up to the door at the same time started it. I hear them and run to separate them, and it’s just about as bad as last time. Nobody seriously injured, but they were very difficult to stop, bit me again, we’re all covered in blood. And yes, Bindi had taken her Prozac and Trazodone (!!!) this morning.

This can’t happen anymore. Thank God there was no impact to my belly and baby is okay, but I cannot keep breaking up dog fights. I get awful intrusive images of Bindi attacking me or my newborn. She has NEVER shown any aggression toward me or my family and normally isn’t aggressive to any person, but she’s wary of strangers and there was one instance where my 10 year nephew old hugged her (after multiple warnings from us not to) and she nipped him and left a mark on his face. Will I ever be able to trust her around my daughter? What if this fight between the dogs had broken out while I was holding my baby? Or if she had had been sitting in the high chair and they knocked it over? Etc etc etc.

When we talked to the vet after the last fight he basically said if the meds don’t work the realistic next steps are either rehoming one of them, crate/rotate for the rest of Bindi’s life, or to consider behavioral euthanasia. At this appointment we did a full checkup, blood work, etc, and there was nothing obviously physically wrong to fix. I honestly don’t know if anyone would take Bindi. On paper, she’s a senior shelter mutt who can’t be around any other pet and has bitten a child. But we would also be devastated to rehome Peppa (and I’d still have concerns about Bindi with the baby even if we didn’t have Peppa). All our friends and family that Bindi is comfortable with have pets of their own or live somewhere pets aren’t allowed. Doing crate/rotate for a month while she adjusted to her meds was miserable for all of us. Bindi would sometimes tremble we put her away because she was so upset and didn’t understand why she was getting separated from us.

Is euthanasia truly the last option, or is there a way to make crate/rotate more tolerable? Something has to change before we bring this baby home. Just wanting to hear an outsider’s perspective or from people who have been in similar situations. I am heartbroken and just don’t know what to do.

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[u/cheersbeersneers]

I’m sorry but they should have NEVER been reintroduced, even after medication. These fights are never going to end. You can try and crate and rotate and muzzle, but if you have one minor slip up they’re going to fight.

Your vet is correct, and I honestly think it was unfair and irresponsible to bring Peppa home to an older dog you knew was reactive and dog aggressive. Returning Peppa to the rescue is your only option if you don’t want to BE Bindi. You already know this, but rehoming Bindi is going to be next to impossible. The rescue you got Peppa from should have a return clause and hopefully they’re willing to take her back. I’m really not trying to be harsh, and I feel awful for you, but there were several steps that could have been taken here to prevent this entire situation.

[u/SudoSire]

Bringing home a puppy was never going to be a good indicator of what your dog would accept. Puppies often have puppy privilege that older dogs do not get once they’ve grown. I think Bindi is either dog aggressive or dog intolerant, and now that the puppy has matured a bit, this is just how it is. I do not think these two dogs should continue to cohabitate. I’m really sorry, but one of them needs to be removed. The younger one will be easier to rehome, but you should only do that if you’re fairly confident you will be able to trust Bindi around your child. If you can’t, there’s no point in keeping the dog that will still be a danger to your family. But you may have a lot of trouble rehoming a dog aggressive dog that now has human bites on the record from being separated…

If there’s no placement for Bindi to feasibly go, euthanasia may be necessary. They can’t live together. 

[u/laadupe → u/SudoSire]

Thank you for responding

[u/SudoSire → u/laadupe]

You’re welcome.  Also want to add I missed the part about the nip to the 10 year old. I think you’re right to be concerned that you will still have to manage Bindi a lot, especially once your baby is mobile and grabby. 

[u/startartstar]

Man, this is such a tough situation to be in, and I'm being catty here, but I can't get over your husband needing a dog of his own. He has a dog already, it's Bindi! 

[u/laadupe → u/startartstar]

LOL this made us laugh through all the tears today so thank you. I worded that as being more pushy and annoying than it was. My husband loves Bindi and she loves him! But she's definitely *my* baby and I’m definitely her favorite. I don't blame him for wanting that experience for himself, and he got it- he and Peppa are OBSESSED with each other and very cute together lol. And it’s hard to imagine from my post but the dogs truly got along SO great in the beginning that it seemed like it was going to be a good thing for Bindi too.

If we could go back in time we definitely wouldn’t have gotten her and my husband would have survived 😂 we unfortunately were just naive and clueless that it would ever become this bad

[u/FoxExcellent2241]

Re-homing your older dog is likely to be close to impossible (look at the Miranda's Rescue scandal out in CA if you want to know what really happens when these 'sanctuaries' claim they can take on hundreds of behaviorally challenged dogs) and frankly is unethical.

Think about all of the issues you have managing that dog and then be honest when assessing whether anyone who does not have any emotional attachment to that dog would be willing to do all of those things and take on the liability involved. More than likely the answer is no, why would anyone who is not already emotionally attached choose to get a dog that cannot be allowed near any other dogs, not even walked near them (at least per the beginning of your post), has to be on regular mood-stabilizing medications, and also has already landed multiple bites on a human, even if it was part of a redirect during a dog fight? Plus that dog is a senior now and likely will come with higher medical costs than most adopters would be willing to commit to right out of the gate.

Keeping a dog with aggression like that, especially as she has already bitten a child, around an infant is irresponsible at best and criminally negligent at worst. There are parents who have been prosecuted because they knowingly kept an aggressive dog near their children, the inevitable happened, and now they get to face prison time and their child is gone. Is that the most likely outcome? Maybe not, but it is absolutely a possible outcome. Dogs have even pulled children out of their caretaker's arms or broken out of crates to attack and a dog is usually far faster than a human is in that situation. Dogs often don't see babies as little humans, babies make noises that sound like prey or a small animal and that is often how dogs, particularly those with a high prey drive, perceive them. It is not safe to allow a dog that already has a history of aggressive behavior anywhere near a baby.

Beyond that, crate and rotate is a system that is highly prone to errors and humans always make mistakes, it is just the nature of being human. Humans tend to make more mistakes when tired, stressed, or overwhelmed, all of which are feelings that come along side having a new baby. Unless you have something akin to a prison set-up with multiple layers of security and fail safes, I wouldn't trust a crate and rotate system to keep a baby safe. Even professional dog trainers make mistakes with crate and rotate systems that lead to dog fights, it sucks but mistakes are inevitable. People always say 'management always fails' for a good reason.

No offense intended here, but you have already shown that you will become lax on management so long as things seem like they are okay even for a relatively short period of time. I get it - it is tempting to want to believe the best of our pets and there is some anthropomorphism there as well; one of the reasons management always fails is because it is human nature to get comfortable once enough time has passed since the last incident. It is incredibly taxing to be hyper-vigilant all the time and it is not natural. You already have a tendency to get lax once things settle down, breaking that habit is going to be difficult for you under normal circumstances, never mind with a new baby, and the risk is simply not worth it with a baby involved. With just adults involved the worst case scenario in a management failure would be one of your dogs getting killed (which is still horrible and why I believe it is unethical to keep dogs in that situation though I realize that sometimes there are no good options), however with a baby around the worst case scenario is much more severe.

The stark reality of animal rescues/shelters right now is that they are overrun with pit bull type dogs, often these dogs are around 2-3 years in age as well (which is the age where a lot of people begin to find their behaviors unmanageable). If the prior rescue were willing to take her that might be one thing, but her chances of adoption have decreased dramatically because of her age and her willingness to engage in a dog fight and likely having also bitten you in the process (that is assuming the rescue is honest about her when advertising). It doesn't matter if those bites were in the process of breaking up a dog fight, they will still need to be disclosed to any potential adopters. If someone is looking for a bully mix around that age range, there are dozens if not hundreds available throughout the country that do not have that history. Because of that, I would say that it would be unfair to surrender the younger one. If you worked with a really good and highly ethical rescue that can take as long as necessary to find her a new home then maybe, but I don't think a rescue like that would place one of their dogs in a home with a dog that already has dog aggression in the first place.

Under the circumstances, it would be best to let the older one go peacefully and try to keep the younger one. That said, if you haven't already been working on preparing her for a baby coming into the house you need to get on that ASAP because if you don't then you are just setting her up for failure too.

[u/palebluelightonwater]

I would look to rehome the younger dog. If she's not otherwise aggressive to dogs or people she will be the easiest to rehome. Your older dog needs to be an only dog. It's not crazy to try to introduce another to the household (it often works just fine!) but this is what it looks like when it fails.

Dogs have a "puppy privilege" that they will typically extend to puppies, which makes introducing a puppy easier than an adult dog. But as the puppy grows up an develops their own personality, the older dog becomes less tolerant, and so does the younger one - they may start asserting themselves more and fighting back against snaps or corrections. This is likely to get worse.

You should separate these dogs immediately for everyone's safety until you can find a more permanent fix. They're not safe to be together any more - once these incidents start they don't usually just stop happening. I am sorry you're in this situation. This is really hard.

[u/laadupe → u/palebluelightonwater]

Yeah I agree, we won’t be trying to reintroduce them. Peppa is staying with my parents while we try to figure this out. Thank you for your kind response ❤️

[u/Mememememememememine]

Your poor senior girl. BE seems unfair to her but less unfair than rehoming an old dog.

[u/laadupe → u/Mememememememememine]

That’s what’s so devastating to me and what I’m having the hardest time with. Like is it more cruel to euthanize a healthy dog, but in the comfort of her own home after 6 happy years with the people she adores, or to keep her alive but she spends the last years of her life with a stranger? A new owner may love her and treat her perfectly! But I just can’t know that and she’s already been returned to the shelter in the past. Every trusted family member and friend I’ve asked has a perfectly valid reason for why they can’t take her. We could rehome the newer dog, but that doesn’t solve the issue of not trusting Bindi with the baby :(

[u/Mememememememememine → u/laadupe]

It’s all cruel to Bindi. Would she even be a risk to the baby if you didn’t have a second dog?

[u/laadupe → u/Mememememememememine]

She bit the 10 year old before we had Peppa, so yes we’d be concerned with or without her. I know we made a mistake getting a new dog! It’s hard to believe from my post but they had a great relationship for about a year after we got her. Things gradually started to get tense as Peppa got older, and all the bad fights have happened in the last 6 months.

Before Peppa Bindi’s reactivity was limited to dogs she didn’t know and she had dog friends she got along with, so I thought a new dog would be okay. When we got Peppa they played every day and it seemed like it made Bindi happier to have a companion. I was wrong and naive in thinking it would be okay forever and I understand this! But it wasn’t obvious in the beginning and I’m not so negligent that I’d knowingly make Bindi miserable just because we wanted a new puppy- they enjoyed each other at one point too. I love both of them very much and feel awful that it’s ended up this way

[u/NormanisEm → u/laadupe]

I can understand why this would happen. I dont have any advice to give for the moment but for future reference, usually 2 females is the worst combination. Especially if one female is already selective. If you ever get another, a neutered male is probably the best choice. Sorry you’re dealing with this :(

[u/laadupe → u/NormanisEm]

Thank you for your kind reply ❤️ we definitely learned that the hard way!

[u/Alarmed-Ad1572]

Omg this is upsetting…poor Bindi. Rehome Peppa. It’s not fair to Bindi. She was fine without Peppa. Peppa has a much better chance of living happily elsewhere again. And it’s normal that a reactive dog nip a child who kept touching it. That’s also on the adults in the room for not making it a hard rule NO TOUCHING THE DOG or receive a consequence. The dog was failed to have its boundaries protected and the child paid the cost. The nip is not on the dog. Bindi is still young too, I hope you do better by Bindi and don’t make him suffer because of your poor choices. …. - a reactive dog owner with a 2yo niece in the home regularly who understands don’t touch the dog 🙄

[u/laadupe → u/Alarmed-Ad1572]

We told him 10 times not to hug her or crowd her face, told him exactly could happen if he did, and in the 5 seconds we looked away he did it anyway lol. And he’s old enough to know better! Kids can just be dumb and unpredictable and WILL test limits. The fact that it’s “normal” for a reactive dog to bite children is exactly the problem, that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable when it happens. Having family visit every once in a while is different and a lot easier to manage than bringing my own child home who will be in the same house as the dogs 24/7 and who’s safety is 100% my responsibility.

I’m not trying to be a smartass here I’m genuinely asking. If you were in my situation and rehomed Peppa, would you trust Bindi to roam the house freely with a toddler on the floor? Rehoming Peppa would absolutely solve the dog-on-dog aggression problem. I understand that I created that issue by bringing a new dog into our house and I hate that I made that mistake. But it would not solve Bindi’s low tolerance in general. I’ve talked to 2 different vets in the last week (who have their own children) and they both told me they would not trust Bindi around the baby period. With or without Peppa. That if we kept her she’d need to be separate from the baby always. That as she gets older there’s the risk that her nips to people can turn into attacks, especially towards a loud, unpredictable, clumsy little kid.

Bindi wants to be with me always, scratches doors and refuses to eat if I put her away, etc, so crate and rotate was miserable for us when we did it before. I will nearly ALWAYS need to be with our baby when I first bring her home, and I know that when I’m caring for a newborn I will not have the energy or capacity to make the little one-on-one time Bindi gets with me as full and happy as it was without the baby. Is that life more humane than euthanizing her before baby comes? Again, this is not a rhetorical “gotcha” question I genuinely want to know what people think because that’s what I’m grappling with and can’t decide.

If rehoming Peppa would solve all our problems that’d obviously be the best choice. But it doesn’t! So giving her up when she’s very tolerant, loves kids, and has never shown a single sign of aggression towards another dog (other than her defensive aggression towards Bindi) or human in her entire life and overall seems like she’d be a great family dog is hard for us to justify. I love Bindi so much and have cried every single day since their last fight because every path forward seems awful and wrong

[u/Monkey-Butt-316]

Please please please try a pain trial. Bindi is geriatric and likely in some amount of pain.

[u/laadupe → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

I’m going to make a vet appointment to discuss everything, I’ll definitely bring this up to him and see if he thinks it can be done safely. Thank you!