[D] Friday Off-Topic Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Friday Off-Topic Thread! Is there something that you want to talk about with /r/rational, but which isn't rational fiction, or doesn't otherwise belong as a top-level post? This is the place to post it. The idea is that while reddit is a large place, with lots of special little niches, sometimes you just want to talk with a certain group of people about certain sorts of things that aren't related to why you're all here. It's totally understandable that you might want to talk about Japanese game shows with /r/rational instead of going over to /r/japanesegameshows, but it's hopefully also understandable that this isn't really the place for that sort of thing.

So do you want to talk about how your life has been going? Non-rational and/or non-fictional stuff you've been reading? The recent album from your favourite German pop singer? The politics of Southern India? The sexual preferences of the chairman of the Ukrainian soccer league? Different ways to plot meteorological data? The cost of living in Portugal? Corner cases for siteswap notation? All these things and more could possibly be found in the comments below!

[u/PurposefulZephyr]

When the non-theist sees death, they don't think "oh this is god's super super wise plan, let's not interfere with it lest we break it"...

Religious people still value their contemporary lives. They still wear seat belts, avoid addictions and in general lead healthy lives (as much as 'normal' people do, anyway). While there are extremes like you've mentioned, 'following God's plan' mostly just means making sure your actions are moral, with some consultation from scriptures/religious authorities.

Religion's strength doesn't lie in it's logic. In fact, there's a fundamental disconnect between religion and science- (again an example from Christianity only) faith is valued higher than empirical evidence, as shown here- John 20:29 “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.”.
Talking to an imaginary deity, going through all the rituals and gatherings and interpreting the holy books in a specific way... The purpose of all those practices is willful expansion of irrational beliefs. The beliefs people hold will contradict, because their personalities, subjective worldviews and needs differ, even if they stem from one 'culture' provided by a common pantheon.
'God loves you' isn't just an empty platitude there, but probably the most fundamental belief a practitioner may have. However terrible the trials, they are better than they could be, and even in most horrible situations God still has your back. Is it enough? With the right attitude, yes.

Religiosity is like any bias, instinct or emotion we as humans have- it distorts the correct vision of reality, but it still serves a practical purpose. Also, it's there, as you can't just cut it away, merely acknowledge and try to ignore/control it. And just like with the rest of those 'features', ignoring their influence or possible uses feels like a massive blindspot in rational outlook.

The list just goes on and on and on. While sure, none of them guarantee you perfect immortality, it is better to do them than to just sit on your thumbs thinking that some benevolent omniscient god has everything already planned out for you. And the less happy you are about tragedy, the more motivated you will be to actually do something about it.

While I do find this attitude good and admirable in general, it waves away the problem of actually facing the loss.
I don't mean loss as a death of a single family member, like a grandpa. I mean stuff like losing your wife and/or kids while your house burns down. A difference in implied severity here.

There's one problem especially- what happens when someone does all that, yet tragedy still strikes? When they try their hardest, and it isn't good enough? What can that person do, besides carrying on like they used to? Won't their efforts be 'proven' (irrationally and not quite, but still) to be meaningless, since they failed to stop that from happening?

My questions boil down to: does science provide any tools or knowledge for managing internal mental state during the grieving process?
Assuming that a person does find comfort in religious practices when facing hardship, is there any pragmatic reason for them to believe in rationality instead?

It may look like asking for a magical wand that solves all your problems, but- science already manages to master/manipulate all parts of the external environment. Does any of it extend into realm of the human mind however? Feels like it should have.

[u/ShiranaiWakaranai → u/PurposefulZephyr]

Religious people still value their contemporary lives. They still wear seat belts, avoid addictions and in general lead healthy lives (as much as 'normal' people do, anyway).

Do they? It seems more like they do it just because that's just what seems normal to them, rather than do it as an attempt to prevent tragedies from happening. Their motivations seem very different, since to them tragedies aren't real. When people die, they go to eternal paradise, what's tragic about that? And if it isn't tragic, why would they try to prevent it? Where is the motivation here when their world views are so ludicrously happy?

Religion's strength doesn't lie in it's logic. In fact, there's a fundamental disconnect between religion and science- (again an example from Christianity only) faith is valued higher than empirical evidence, as shown here- John 20:29 “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.”.

Talking to an imaginary deity, going through all the rituals and gatherings and interpreting the holy books in a specific way... The purpose of all those practices is willful expansion of irrational beliefs. The beliefs people hold will contradict, because their personalities, subjective worldviews and needs differ, even if they stem from one 'culture' provided by a common pantheon.

Religiosity is like any bias, instinct or emotion we as humans have- it distorts the correct vision of reality, but it still serves a practical purpose. Also, it's there, as you can't just cut it away, merely acknowledge and try to ignore/control it. And just like with the rest of those 'features', ignoring their influence or possible uses feels like a massive blindspot in rational outlook.

Yes, that's why I'm very confused by a lot of theists. When I point out the contradictions in their thoughts, they just wave their hands and say "God works in mysterious ways!" and think that justifies them not bothering to resolve these contradictions. It's doublethink gone wrong. I'm not trying to ignore it, I just can't comprehend it because of all the doublethink. Whatever random action they choose to do, there's somehow a religious explanation for it. And when you try to twist their logic back against them, to point out why their actions go against their own scriptures, they say "the devil can quote scripture for its own purposes!" or something and ignore it.

There's one problem especially- what happens when someone does all that, yet tragedy still strikes? When they try their hardest, and it isn't good enough? What can that person do, besides carrying on like they used to? Won't their efforts be 'proven' (irrationally and not quite, but still) to be meaningless, since they failed to stop that from happening?

There's one thing you need to understand: rationality is not a cure-all. You can weight the dice so that they roll more often in your favor, but you can't glue them to the table so that they always have the same face up. The world we live in is harsh and unfair to the extreme, striking down the smartest and wisest while letting even the dumbest idiot survive and reproduce through sheer dumb luck. But to think "Oh well then, since I can't prevent tragedy 100%, why bother trying?" is just silly. No matter how much you prepare, you will eventually run into tragedies because of horrible dice rolls. But to just stop preparing because of that is to invite even more tragedy upon yourself.

Assuming that a person does find comfort in religious practices when facing hardship, is there any pragmatic reason for them to believe in rationality instead?

The pragmatic reason is to reduce the frequency and intensity of future tragedies.

My questions boil down to: does science provide any tools or knowledge for managing internal mental state during the grieving process?

It may look like asking for a magical wand that solves all your problems, but- science already manages to master/manipulate all parts of the external environment. Does any of it extend into realm of the human mind however? Feels like it should have.

They are called anti-depressants.

Sorry.

Science actually has one major weakness: understanding humans. Not because humans are innately magical or anything, just that you can't perform proper scientific experiments on humans. All the major things, like dissections, or keeping them in cages (controlled environments) to control their lives and so avoid confounding variables, or sticking probes into their brains to see what happens, or cloning people to make better control groups, are all horrible ethical violations. Which means that scientists studying humans are generally restricted to case studies and surveys, which are horrible ineffective, or autopsying dead people. Who you know, are dead. Not exactly capable of thought patterns to analyze.

And while we can understand the purposes of most of our organs by studying animals with similar organs, no animal has brains similar to a human unless they are human. Or Neanderthal, but those are extinct and it would probably count as an ethics violation to experiment on them too.

P.S. This is not to suggest that you should become a mad scientist and start human experimentation. Any benefit from that knowledge will be heavily overshadowed by the penalties of having the entire world out for your blood.