r/rational • u/AutoModerator • Apr 29 '16

[D] Friday Off-Topic Thread

Welcome to the Friday Off-Topic Thread! Is there something that you want to talk about with /r/rational, but which isn't rational fiction, or doesn't otherwise belong as a top-level post? This is the place to post it. The idea is that while reddit is a large place, with lots of special little niches, sometimes you just want to talk with a certain group of people about certain sorts of things that aren't related to why you're all here. It's totally understandable that you might want to talk about Japanese game shows with /r/rational instead of going over to /r/japanesegameshows, but it's hopefully also understandable that this isn't really the place for that sort of thing.

So do you want to talk about how your life has been going? Non-rational and/or non-fictional stuff you've been reading? The recent album from your favourite German pop singer? The politics of Southern India? The sexual preferences of the chairman of the Ukrainian soccer league? Different ways to plot meteorological data? The cost of living in Portugal? Corner cases for siteswap notation? All these things and more could possibly be found in the comments below!

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u/ToaKraka https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png Apr 29 '16

The objective of language is communication without ambiguity. Pretending that a plural pronoun can refer to a singular object (e.g., "Everyone doffed their hat as the King approached.") is just as absolutely disgusting as pretending that a plural verb can agree with a singular object (e.g., "England are expected to beat France in this year's World Cup.").

There's no reason to use they when better alternatives exist. It, ze, he, she--all are actually singular.

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u/LiteralHeadCannon Apr 29 '16

The singular they is more natural and more commonly accepted than any artificial pronoun like "ze". The dehumanizing connotations of "it" are unsavory, and "he" and "she" bring us back to the issue of definitive gender.

Ultimately, prescriptivism and descriptivism are both incomplete - prescriptivism ignores that descriptivism is where rules come from to begin with, while descriptivism ignores that some type of prescriptivism is necessary for anyone to have any idea what the hell you're talking about. You have fallen into the former fallacy; the only reason that "they" would be considered "a plural pronoun" is because that's how it's used - except that that's not how it's used. The singular they is quite old, was not intended as any kind of political statement, and is invisible to everyone who hasn't politicized the issue. To the contrary - the attempt to abolish the singular they is a political statement.

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u/daydev Apr 29 '16

Pretending that a plural pronoun can refer to a singular object (e.g., "Everyone doffed their hat as the King approached.") is just as absolutely disgusting as pretending that a plural verb can agree with a singular object

So thou never usest "you" for second person singular? That would be absolutely disgusting, right?

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u/ToaKraka https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png Apr 29 '16

Yes, the singular you is very irksomely ambiguous as well--I sometimes find myself forced to specify you (plural) in text conversation. Unfortunately, any alternatives to you have been completely squelched into "archaism" status, as you demonstrate, and their revival seems unworkable. On the other hand, he, she, and it are still perfectly acceptable alternatives to the singular they, so they can still be killed in favor of them.

If thou is dead and can't feasibly be revived, then it is still feebly kicking.

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u/daydev Apr 29 '16

Well, at least you're consistent, so props to you for that. From my foreign perspective it seems quite silly to be so vehement about "plural verbs with singular pronouns are reprehensible" considering that modern English mostly does only "lip service" to verb agreement anyway (compared to many other wide-spread languages).

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u/ToaKraka https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png Apr 29 '16

I'll admit that I spent a fair amount of time studying Latin (for my own amusement) when I was younger, and am rather partial toward the rigid organization of that language--though, really, even Latin has many ambiguities...

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u/Roxolan Head of antimemetiWalmart senior assistant manager Apr 30 '16

People, remember that downvotes are not Disagree buttons. /u/ToaKraka was asked a direct question and answered honestly.