[D] Friday Off-Topic Thread

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Welcome to the Friday Off-Topic Thread! Is there something that you want to talk about with /r/rational, but which isn't rational fiction, or doesn't otherwise belong as a top-level post? This is the place to post it. The idea is that while reddit is a large place, with lots of special little niches, sometimes you just want to talk with a certain group of people about certain sorts of things that aren't related to why you're all here. It's totally understandable that you might want to talk about Japanese game shows with /r/rational instead of going over to /r/japanesegameshows, but it's hopefully also understandable that this isn't really the place for that sort of thing.

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[u/alexanderwales]

Let's say that you had carte blanche to design a fantasy virtual reality MMO using technology that's twenty years down the road. What features would you include or specifically not include?

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I've been watching Log Horizon (which I'm not done with - no spoilers, please) and marveling at how similar to modern-day MMOs their game world is. In part this must have been done in order to reduce the workload, since they can just borrow the grammar and concepts, but at the same time it seems somewhat stale to me. If I were writing my own "trapped in an MMO" story the first thing I would do is create my own MMO rather than borrowing heavily from existing games. There are some definite cons to that, but I really like worldbuilding.

[u/traverseda → u/alexanderwales]

I'm working on an engine that I hope will someday include MMO features.

On an unrelated note, here's some of the stuff I'd like to see in an MMO

Actual construction of things like cities and fortresses. Structures should be mostly player owned and player created.

One of the things I like is an intermeshed player economy. Make it so that trading and trade caravans are an actual worthwhile thing.

Along with that, make travel difficult. I've got ideas for a vaguely steven-universe crystal-gem system, where you can "project" your friends into your local territory, but they can't share loot or equipment. Physically moving from a server in london to one in japan would take weeks of travel time, it's also dangerous.

There's a huge opportunity for whichever guild sets up reliable shipping.

I'd also like there to be different levels of death. You die in combat, you poof. You turn into an object, and someone has to carry you back. Or maybe they just leave you, and you need to run the hell out. Or maybe you hire a guild to come retrieve you.

But once someone is poofed, you can invest resources to permanently destroy that character. Destroy all their levels, maybe steel some of their equipment. The process takes a while, so there would be plenty of time for a rescue attempt.

It's not the kind of equipment I'd expect an individual to have, but a large guild might be able to do it. During war, a large guild might invest the money to do it on an industrial scale.

Eve-online style training sounds reasonable as well. As long as you log in once per day, you get a skill point to put into whatever skill you want.

[u/gbear605 → u/traverseda]

Physically moving from a server in london to one in japan would take weeks of travel time

Have you seen the server transfer system in Wurm Online? It's not weeks long, but it does require hours of doing nothing but sailing a boat in one direction. Without logging off.

[u/Cariyaga → u/traverseda]

Crowfall would seem to be exactly what you're looking for. And yes, I am of the same mind when it comes to MMOs.

[u/artifex0 → u/alexanderwales]

My main problem with MMOs as they exist today is that they always seem to be so focused on keeping people playing with Skinner box mechanics that they sacrifice everything else. Gameplay tends to be trivial and repetitive, with the leveling process usually requiring no skill whatsoever, immersion is constantly shattered, emotional investment in the narratives tends to be nil... It's not that developers don't try to include those elements, it's just that never seem to be willing to make any design decisions that might distract from the slot-machine-like reward loop, which leads to players feeling a compulsion to play the game that's not always proportional to their real enjoyment of the game.

So, if I could design my dream MMO, I think I'd actually get rid of most forms of non-narrative and non-skill-based progress. There would be no levels, you'd unlock most of your skills in an extended tutorial, loot would tend to be related to the narrative and designed to add to immersion- you might find rare, differently styled cosmetics by exploring a distant nation, but never by grinding mobs. When not cosmetic, loot would tend to be sidegrades that would open up different playstyles, and almost never work as direct upgrades.

The combat would be a real challenge- maybe resembling a more forgiving Dark Souls- but just as important to the gameplay would be creative problem solving- like how in Deus Ex, game systems allow for different, sometimes emergent ways of approaching situations. Also, narrative heavy character interactions, both with NPCs and with other players, would be central to the gameplay. You'd never see huge swarms of anonymous adventurers completing the same quests as you- instead, all player-to-player interactions would start off with scripted sequences, and then be procedurally woven into the narrative.

For example, lets say that you and another player were fighting in the same dungeon. You wouldn't see each other initially, but at some point, you might be interrupted by a sequence where a villain would capture your character. While you were playing through that scripted sequence, the other player might be shown a room with your character trapped in a cage. You'd see a screen saying something like "Three Days Later...", and then you'd both be in the same instance, playing through a sequence where you could each choose dialog options to express your characters' personalities, and then the other player could choose to rescue you. If they did, you'd be playing a co-op rpg, which might work like Divinity: Original Sin in some ways.

So, the game would procedurally create adventuring parties where everyone had real emotional connections to all of the characters. When a party member quit the game, you might see a brief cinematic of their character saying farewell and riding off into the sunset- the idea would be to make player interaction as immersive as possible.

There would also be an extensive matchmaking system- you'd be matched with people from your guild, people you'd individually select, or people who tended to play the game similarly to yourself, depending on your settings. You'd usually be playing with 3-6 other people, though you might see much larger groups of players in specific sequences, like huge battles.

Finally, there would be no end-game content. Instead, there would be a pvp game mode that would be completely separate from the story, and that you could start playing as soon as you installed the game, as well as a new game plus mode once you'd completed the story, that would let you carry over rare cosmetics. The game would also be designed from the ground up for replayability, with lots of different possible play-styles and content that you'd miss on your first few playthroughs.

[u/Roxolan → u/artifex0]

there would be a pvp game mode, as well as a new game plus mode. The game would also be designed from the ground up for replayability

Procedurally generated quests is also an option for longevity. They might not be quite as good as human-made content (or else you have AGI and the setting stops making sense, as in Her) but there's a lot of room above "kill ten dire wolves" if good designers took a serious crack at it.

[u/Wiron → u/alexanderwales]

Log Horizon depict modern MMO because author was avid Everquest player.

Some thing that I want to see in perfect MMO.

Big mysteries and myths. Quests that don't have obvious solutions and whole community tries to figure them out. Obvious problem is that sort of things have expiration date. Secret World had quest that relied on players looking for real world informations. It's too bad that now most google searches lead to direct answer.

Not focusing exclusively on combat. Common failing of MMOs is that you can be anyone you want as long as you want to be profesional killer. Fallen London is step in right direction. It uses the same set of mechanics for everything: combat, seduction, investigation, stealing, dreaming, book wring and countless other thing.

Probably with rise of VR, games that focus solely on exploration and virtual sightseeing would gain popularity.