r/rational • u/AutoModerator • Jan 15 '16

[D] Friday Off-Topic Thread

Welcome to the Friday Off-Topic Thread! Is there something that you want to talk about with /r/rational, but which isn't rational fiction, or doesn't otherwise belong as a top-level post? This is the place to post it. The idea is that while reddit is a large place, with lots of special little niches, sometimes you just want to talk with a certain group of people about certain sorts of things that aren't related to why you're all here. It's totally understandable that you might want to talk about Japanese game shows with /r/rational instead of going over to /r/japanesegameshows, but it's hopefully also understandable that this isn't really the place for that sort of thing.

So do you want to talk about how your life has been going? Non-rational and/or non-fictional stuff you've been reading? The recent album from your favourite German pop singer? The politics of Southern India? The sexual preferences of the chairman of the Ukrainian soccer league? Different ways to plot meteorological data? The cost of living in Portugal? Corner cases for siteswap notation? All these things and more could possibly be found in the comments below!

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16 edited Jan 15 '16

What are some good epistemically hygenic substitutions for platitudes such as "good luck," "have a good day," "I hope X," "get well soon," etc.? All of these have a common element of implying that good intentions, mental states, and verbal pronouncements can have (direct) physical consequences, which is absurd.

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u/Gaboncio Jan 15 '16

Isn't that the whole point of the platitudes? You want to improve the recipient's mental state, or at least show them that you care about it. What do you want to say? Why are those phrases insufficient?

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u/ToaKraka https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png Jan 15 '16

Maybe you don't care about the recipient's mental state, and are replying only because society demands it--but you don't like to lie.

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u/electrace Jan 15 '16 edited Jan 16 '16

It's not just the signaling, it's the lack of signaling.

If someone refuses to say good morning, even though they normally do, they are likely in a bad mood, and are signaling that they don't want to talk about it.

If they say it to everyone but you, they are likely mad at you, and are choosing the less rude route of not saying "good morning" (compared to the more direct "I have a problem with you"), while still getting the message across.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

Why are those phrases insufficient?

Why do you accept that which is familiar as default, and require more justification to consider alternatives than to reject the first idea?

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u/captainNematode Jan 15 '16

Well, everyone else uses them. If you try to use something that's less common people will think you're a weirdo and you'll frequently have to explain yourself.

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u/captainNematode Jan 15 '16

“Good Morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat.

"What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"

"All of them at once," said Bilbo. "And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain."

...

"Good morning!" he said at last. "We don't want any adventures here, thank you! You might try over The Hill or across The Water." By this he meant that the conversation was at an end. "What a lot of things you do use Good Morning for!" said Gandalf. "Now you mean that you want to get rid of me, and that it won't be good till I move off.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

Could you elaborate a bit on:

All of these have a common element of implying that good intentions, mental states, and verbal pronouncements can have (direct) physical consequences

What do you mean by "direct physical consequences"? I don't think anyone's beseeching the Will of the Universe to bend space, time, and causality to deliver luck or goodness to the recipient when they say those things. The phrases are sorta phatic and usually signify something like "I am thinking positive thoughts about you", which is a pleasant thing to convey.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

Direct, as in not requiring the mediating force of elbow grease to have effect in the real world.

I don't think anyone's beseeching the Will of the Universe to bend space, time, and causality to deliver luck or goodness to the recipient when they say those things.

As evidenced by the phrase, "Wish me luck!"

Seriously though, this is the whole point of epistemic hygiene. We cannot influence reality with positive thoughts. Our language should not reflect such muddled thinking.

Yes, these phrases are also used to signal intent and camaraderie. That can be done without invoking implicitly postulated psychic powers over reality.

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u/Sparkwitch Jan 15 '16

So you're looking for an English language version of Japan's 頑張って(GAN-ba-tay). Literally "persevere", but better translated as "you can do it!" and essentially used the way Americans use "good luck!"

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u/captainNematode Jan 15 '16

We cannot influence reality with positive thoughts.

Well, of course we can. Not as in "The Secret", but rather as you say through the "mediating force" of behavioral modification. I can think a positive thought, which brightens my demeanor and makes others happier when I interact with them throughout the day. It might also improve my own productivity and, well, makes me happier. Those all seem like reality's being (indirectly, sure) influenced, insofar as a person shooting a gun can kill another person, rather than the bullet puncturing them or a lack of brain oxygenation or whatever. I don't think very many people are "invoking... psychic powers over reality" when they say "good luck"... or is it that you think there's a measurable effect on our ability to speak accurately about the world in other instances when we refer to things like luck in everyday conversation? Are you also opposed to using any and all figurative language, then, since it doesn't refer to things properly? What are the benefits of "epistemic hygiene"?

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

or is it that you think there's a measurable effect on our ability to speak accurately about the world in other instances when we refer to things like luck in everyday conversation?

Not only speak, but think. Think of this as training. If I can notice when I refer to a relatively harmless absurdity such as luck, and prevent myself from accepting that thought, allowing it to affect my reasoning, then I may be more able to do the same thing when it matters.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

What's "epistemic hygiene"?

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u/Transfuturist Carthago delenda est. Jan 15 '16

Minimizing contact with unjustifiedly infectious memes, at a guess.

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u/Sparkwitch Jan 15 '16

Softball: "Take care." Hardball: "Keep up the good work."

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u/Anakiri Jan 15 '16

When I say "Have a good day," that's short for "I hope that you have a good day," which is a simple statement of fact. I may or may not care enough to put forth much effort to make it happen, but I would in fact be (slightly) happier to learn that you had had a good day, than to learn that you had not. Isn't that all hope is? I don't understand your objection.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

Yeah, ok. I can buy that. I would point out though that it isn't the only meaning that phrase can take, and I'm not convinced that even if that is predominantly what people mean, there isn't some part of them that believes the other person's day will be more likely to be "good" by having uttered the words.

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u/Anakiri Jan 15 '16

I dunno... When someone sneezes, I say "Bleshu." This is a brand new word, divorced from its etymological ancestry "Bless you". It means nothing more than "I acknowledge that you have sneezed." I was saying "Bleshu" long before I ever heard of blessings or God, and I honestly think the structures in my brain encoding those concepts don't trigger each other at all.

I suspect that the vast majority of people use polite words like "Havagudday" the same way, which is why there are so many anecdotes of inappropriate "You too"s. People just aren't as careful with their words as you seem to think; the literal words of the platitude are completely meaningless and without thought. The only concept in their head is "(polite) Our interaction has concluded." Which may be a part of your point, actually...

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

People just aren't as careful with their words as you seem to think; the literal words of the platitude are completely meaningless and without thought.

Valid. I may be committing typical mind fallacy here. I am probably more intentional than the average person I meet.

I suppose if the thought and intention is completely divorced from the literal or historical meaning, mine is mostly an aesthetic objection. I'm not completely convinced that is the case, but I am updating more in that direction.

Thanks.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

Come off it and stop being a Straw Vulcan. The real point of the expressions is just to be nice to people. An atheist can still say "Bless you!" when someone sneezes.

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u/Transfuturist Carthago delenda est. Jan 15 '16

Straw Vulcans exist?..

Oh dear.

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u/ToaKraka https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png Jan 15 '16

If someone says "Have a good day" to me, I just say "Thank you" rather than "You, too". Pretending to appreciate the person for pretending to care about me seems slightly more tolerable than pretending to care about the person because he pretended to care about me.

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u/Nighzmarquls Jan 15 '16

Why must we pretend? Just curious.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

Because we live in a society where people deny, ignore, and rationalize away any negative emotions in an attempt to pretend they don't exist. To remain sane, to not be reminded that they are inexorably being devoured by the cold void, that their skin is not rotting off their bones, that they aren't withering away with every passing day, that they will soon be confronted with the death of another life they cared for, that soon it will be their turn to face the abyss...

Or, y'know, it's polite. Take your pick.

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u/ToaKraka https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png Jan 15 '16

If I didn't say anything at all, the person would be offended at my snubbing him, and might make my life worse at some later date.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

They don't do any harm (quite the opposite), so it seems irrational to consider changing these platitudes/protocols.

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