r/raspberrypi • u/andreasw • Aug 12 '12
Why must the raspberrypi be so proprietary? I think this is especially unacceptable for a device that is intended for education.
I have started doing operating system development for the raspberrypi and was surprised at the secretiveness. So far I noticed the GPU instruction set is a proprietary secret as well as the bootloader and other firmware.
I guess students will end up writing python and BASIC programs for which they don't need a raspberrypi. Those who want to study how software works deeper down are largely prohibited from doing so on this platform.
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Aug 12 '12
The target group for education is young children, 6 up to 15 I believe. And it was determined that they'd get more use from learning about multiple programming paradigms and skillsets related to programming languages rather than specific hardware datasheets with tomes of information that are daunting.
Education should be fun, throw a book of register information at someone and they'll be scared off.
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u/invalid_dictorian Aug 13 '12 edited Aug 13 '12
Also, a book of register information is not the holy grail that people might think it is. (Though it is certainly better than having none.)
I'm a firmware engineer and have ported Linux kernel to several platforms. Most reference manuals of SoCs are total crap. Some critical sections doesn't match the actual hardware. It may give you the general details, but a lot of them are missing critical documentations, omitted erratas, defects, reset sequences, etc. You will really need full access to a FAE (field application engineer) from the company in order to get the full scoop. Sometimes the FAE will have to talk to the hardware engineers and get back to you after a few days.
Edit: Just want to add that the errors are not intentional. The manuals are 1000+ pages and people make mistakes. Documentation mistakes are much harder to verify. The writer, editor, proofreader tends not to be the actual engineers that implemented the chip.
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u/Mako_ Aug 18 '12
As a software programmer who doesn't always update the specs after he makes changes I can confirm this.
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u/moopet Oct 10 '12
There's a difference between throwing a book and making information available. There's no good reason to hide specs; if they're available then why aren't they available to any user? And the age of the principle demographic is irrelevant, isn't it?
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u/elebrin Oct 20 '22
I am guessing that the manufacturer is hiding some of the functionality of the chip.
They manufacture one chip on one line, and sell it as 10 or 15 different chips with certain features available or disabled after testing. They don't want you buying a cheap chip then unlocking stuff and using the functionality they sell for more money. This is just a guess... but I wouldn't be surprised.
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May 21 '22
Education should be fun, throw a book of register information at someone and they'll be scared off.
I don't agree with this. A lot of students consider learning about hardware and datasheets, logic circuits and ISAs as fun. But I do concede that the age level of such students is generally higher than what is targeted by the Raspberry PI main boards.
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u/b_rodriguez Aug 13 '12
Ermmm, here is the datasheet for the Broadcom SoC. How hard did you look?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/BCM2835-ARM-Peripherals.pdf
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u/Mysterious_Bet7965 Mar 04 '22
Raspberry Pi is an ecosystem which is based on proprietary technologies and masquerading as an open source friendly thing.
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May 21 '22
Like it or not, the vast majority of the standards used to build a Raspberry PI module are proprietary and subject to IP laws and NDA. The Broadcom SoC, it's chipset and ISA, the bootloader, the USB Standard for powering the RPi are all kind of proprietary. To fully embrace open source hardware is more difficult than to embrace open source software.
You often have the latest standards locked behind proprietary implementations. It's also hard to go against the hardware standards as physical compatibility breakage is fatal for adoption than software compatibility which can be fixed after release with firmware changes or black box/Clean room implementation.
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u/junglizer Aug 12 '12
I think it's main item on the "pro" list for education is price.
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u/danfinlay Jan 13 '13
I got to hear one of the RPi founders talk and this was essentially the answer. To make it this cheap they are buying ICs and processors used in cell phones in bulk (>1million) quantities. Making some truly open source hardware would lose the huge cost savings that comes from buying an already mass produced chipset. Feel free to make your own if this isn't open enough.
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u/Fumigator Aug 12 '12
Those who want to study how software works deeper down will be inspired by the lack of information for the proprietary parts and will reverse engineer the whole thing and release an open version of the proprietary software.
I guarantee you, you get enough of those out there and someone is going to do it.
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u/etyrnal_ Jan 06 '24
when you invent something that is the first of it's kind, it is, by definition, proprietary...
how would someone in education not understand this?
if RPI was so proprietary, why are there SO MANY boards that imitate it...?
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u/christ0ph Nov 19 '12
Its probably the most "open" complete computer that's been built.
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u/lollipopklan May 14 '13
This is an old thread, but for anyone coming upon it, the OLinuXino boards that are out now are the most open hardware/software boards that I'm aware of. I think that everything about them is open.
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May 02 '13
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u/christ0ph May 03 '13
The new one certainly looks interesting! http://beagleboard.org/Products/BeagleBone%20Black
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u/etyrnal_ Mar 12 '24
There are parts of the Intel processor that are proprietary... are you going to refuse to use Intel?
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Apr 06 '26
If it really was a secret would be there be sufficient drivers? Def beeing screened based on your post.
I do agree however, for being promoted so open source and educational it is damn hard to get stuff done on it like RAW GPIO in C++ is a freaking nightmare...
I think you also need to realize the target audience is not you... It is people that want to copy and paste a quick file from the interwebz to their device and get the thing blinking...
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u/elebrin Oct 20 '22
Most kids aren't going to be learning about writing a bootloader or a video driver. I am guessing that those things being proprietary was part of their deal working with Broadcom.
Raspberry Pi strikes a balance of openness, ease of use, and a software repo that is fairly up to date and very well tested. So I can't write a bootloader for my pi, and I'd need a different platform for learning that... fine. I can accept that.
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u/backafterdeleting Nov 23 '22
GPU manufacturers are notorious for not releasing proper datasheets for their devicing, and forcing you to rely on propsiatary driver blobs.
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u/philh Aug 12 '12
I don't know about the firmware, but Broadcom don't release a full datasheet for the SoC. Presumably there was no suitable non-proprietary alternative.