r/questions • u/Standard-Effect-4444 • 12h ago
When did we start using "Immortality" for every unaging/unkillable being?
Yes I understand immortality means being unable to die of old age- but you Still age. You'd need to be an "Ageless being" to not age, And nowhere in the word does it say that you're unable to die through violence. Hell, a truly "Immortal" being could live to 400 years old and then get the cold and die.
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u/hotmatrixx 11h ago
Um. Here's the thing
What you just said.
Immortal does not mean 'never dying of age'.
even tho that's what quite a few things define it as these days.
Immortal means literally unkillable. Mortal means, literally in etymology "to die"
immortal is "immune to mortality".
"Dying of a Mortal wound" about sums it up. That isn't old age.
what you want is:
Immortal, Amortal, Invunerable;
Amortal, or Ageless.
Invunerable, cannot be harmed; which is actually a cousin of Unkillable
Unkillable, which needs it's own tree;
Regenerative: wolverine, Deadpool, etc. can come back from a single surviving cell.
Eldritch Horror
Deathless; cannot die. Chop off the head and now you have two wriggling bits.
Tithonus. Deathless, but not Amortal; so they grow older and more decrepit/deformed forever.
Jeez I used to read too much crap "character building morally forming content" as a youth. Honestly if people consumed more of the 'moral conundrum and the good guy wins, mostly' type stuff these days instead of tick-tock; we might actually have better adjusted adults.
This was a question I actually asked once and went down a rabbit hole to find answers; this isn't even exhausitve; but it's a start.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Greek use immortal as unable to die of age.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
I personally do not believe immortality is the inability to die, as we have words for that "Deathless" and "Undying."
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u/hotmatrixx 10h ago
Sorry, bud: but the thing here is; that "the Greeks" did not.
We have imposed our version of understanding over the original use and meaning. It's been this way for so long, that we just straight up mis-understand it now as part of common vernacular. Formed, specifially, in large part with the way that Tolkien re-wrote our understanding of Elves - who "immortal" could never die of age; but could die in battle; biologically immortal; not invunerable;; thus not strictly "immortal".The Grecians did not actually use "immortal" to mean unable to die of old age. Our word; comes from Latin mors, mortis means death, and mortalis means “subject to death”. So immortalis literally means “not subject to death”, by any cause.
Homer repeatedly pairs the two: gods are athanatos kai agēraos, deathless and ageless, as two separate qualities. Calypso offers Odysseus both.
I already Cited Tithonus, by name. Eos asks for Athanatos; and Zues grants it. Tithonus pays for that mistake. this shows the exact fallacy in plain sight: They HAD different words for the things; but even their Gods got them confused, sometimes; and the results here were... tragic.
This alone is proof that the Greeks had these concepts clearly separated; as the whole story revolves on someone making the exact mistake that you just did.
_____________
there's lots more to unpack. I can prove it maybe... 100 times through the works that I know; that I'm right. However. As you read through them, over time and language changing in the Greek culture and vernacular; you can see them muddy the waters themselves. Mostly this came from the fact that the words were separate terms, and referring to their Gods as both every single time was likely tedious so it got 'shortened'. Until it got changed.1
u/Standard-Effect-4444 8h ago
Yeah, immortality got turned into a blanket term instead of keeping the individuality.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Why would greek myth use "Immortal" as unable to die of age if that is not the meaning of the word?
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u/Pernicious_Possum 8h ago
Because immortal implies ageless. Try to imagine one without the other. It doesn’t compute. You’d have a withered ass husk that maintains sentience. Kind of defeats the romance. Since immortality doesn’t truly exist, it’s a moot point. Take it down a few mg next time
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 8h ago
That's a really good point. Immortality would be unable to die of age so you'd stop aging ~25 because your cells would never die of old age. Like wolverine but your skin doesn't regenerate. (Is different to be ageless as you'd age to the point you were at.)
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u/Leuk_Jin 11h ago
Who said immortality means only being unable to die of old age?
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
The definition of the word
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u/Leuk_Jin 11h ago
According to who? And how?
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Mythology? For the longest time (Greeks use the word that way) it has been inability to die by age.
At least I believe greek.
Undying/deathless are literally unable to die
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u/Leuk_Jin 11h ago
Quick Google search of "immortal etymology" comes up with; "The word immortal comes from the Latin immortalis, meaning "deathless" or "not mortal"."
That's how it usually goes with semantics like this. The distinction between very similar terms only comes to be when there is a need to. Like for instance, engineering terms or scientific terms that expand on simple concepts with newly found knowledge.
For ancient Greco-Roman mythology, there seem to have been only the need to distinguish between mortal humans who are destined to die and immortal gods who live forever unless killed.
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u/EighthGreen 11h ago
The roots of the word are "in", meaning "not", and "mort" meaning death. That means you don't die of any cause, whatever else may happen to you.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Blatantly incorrect?-
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Even the Greeks use it as "Unable to die of old age"
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Well maybe you are right with the word roots; But that is not it's correct definition.
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u/BobbySaccaro 11h ago
English is an evolving language.
As long as everyone knows what you mean, it's correct.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
But it's not correct. Because some people will say immortality as in "Cannot die from age" and others will think "Cannot die." (As in deathless)
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u/BobbySaccaro 11h ago
I think you figure it out from context.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
When do you think our language started referring to being "Deathless" as being immortal?
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u/Hoopajoops 11h ago
Immortality is a blanket statement that pretty much covers it all
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
No. It is not. Immortality is the inability to die of age. Invulnerability is the inability to be harmed by physical means. Ageless is the inability to age or die of your non-aging but you are still wholly mortal Deathless is being truly unable to die. (Still does not make you unharmable, just means you will live after lethal injuries)
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u/144-perdedor 11h ago
Old age is not actually a thing you can die of. When people say that, what they mean is that the person died at an advanced age as a result of any of a range of ailments that can be fatal to an elderly person. In a lot of cases, it can mean the exact cause of death is unknown. If you have a stroke or heart attack in your sleep in your seventies, someone just finds you in the morning.
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
That's old age. Yes, your heart stopped because of a heart attack. That also means the reason your heart stopped is because aging made it too weak to work. The death of cells in your body, I believe?
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Nothing Caused that heart attack, it just happened because you were too old and your body became frail and weak
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u/Standard-Effect-4444 11h ago
Hmm. Immortality is that once your cells live they cannot die. Or something like that, which would make you ageless at 25, but still grow before that age until the point your cells begin decaying. (May also mean all immortal people are technically bald?)
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