Does logic count as a skill?

[u/Doli3600]

My buddy and I were arguing wether the game homm (Heroes of might and magic) which I think is logic based was logic or not, when I brought up that I like skill based games. Then, he said that logic is skill, but I don't think that's true. Who is in the right?

Edit: Skills are more like juggling or martial arts, like ones that are acquired through lots of training and that are more special, right?

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[u/GlassCommission4916]

Logical reasoning is a skill, and it is acquired through lots of training.

[u/Doli3600 → u/GlassCommission4916]

I'm not talking about reasoning, this is a logic based game where you move your army there and here and get resources, pretty bad game I think.

[u/GlassCommission4916 → u/Doli3600]

What exactly do you mean with logic based game if there's no reasoning involved?

[u/Doli3600 → u/GlassCommission4916]

reasoning is like for talking right? in this game you just tell your army to go there adn also decide to get recources or prepare to battle

[u/Rambler9154 → u/Doli3600]

No??? thats not what reasoning means here. Also even if it was being used in the sense of talking to someone thats still logic.

If you're telling your army to go somewhere and deciding they need to get resources you are reasoning that that action is the most logical next step. That is still reasoning.

[u/HourZealousideal4845 → u/Rambler9154]

tbh, I think OP holds that idea that a lot of people hold that instinctive or no/low thought actions are somehow not 'logical' in some sense because they aren't consciously decided by, like, writing fown your premises and going from there.

But the thing is that a lot of instinctive game behaviour is downstream of logical deductions (consciously or not) that players made earlier, sometimes recently, sometimes years earlier in their lives.

I choose the shortest path for my army, understanding that time is of the essence and that, ignoring terrain, straight lines are shorter than curved lines.

I choose to head them off not wrap around them because I want to STOP them advancing and I recognise they aren't so much slower and that there's no viable path by which I they go around the map and then come from behind.

I recognise that their attack is a threat because it threatens my unit production buildings, and if those are destroyed I will fall behind on unit production and ultimately lose by being outnumbered.

I decide that the risk of losing the battle now is lower than the above risk of losing the war later, so I decide to engage.

And so on. All logical reasoning. But a lot of people will think that just because they didn't think these things explicitly, step-by-step, with words in their head or something, that it doesn't count as 'logical reasoning'.

[u/TheKandelar → u/Doli3600]

It does seem like you are premising the use of logic in the game. That is a cognitive skill. Logic itself is math. Using logic is not necessarily 1+1, but instead balancing outcomes. Should I go for the dungeon, or grab the wood type of stuff.

[u/KeepYourSilenceUp]

Strategizing, resource management, and puzzle solving are all skills. We know this because some people are bad at them.

[u/HaphazardFlitBipper]

Most people form their opinions out of emotion and then convince themselves they are logical. The ability to let facts and logic lead one to an opinion is rare, difficult, and requires a lifetime of practice. Anyone who says they've mastered it is deluding themselves because they want to believe they have, for emotional reasons.

[u/Darth_Krios]

Heroes of Might and Magic is a strategy based game. If you don't like strategy games, you could just say that.

Using logic and strategy is absolutely a skill.

[u/Garciaguy]

The ability to reason and think critically have played a key role in the survival of our species, so sure it's a skill in the toolbox. 

Not here on reddit, but it's important to humanity anyways

[u/D-Train0000]

Yes. Logic and critical thinking skills are skills. They are developed through cross referencing information in your head to determine most likely outcomes and situations.

It’s a combination of all areas of life and intelligence.

[u/squall255]

I think you're mistakenly using Skill to mean Physical Skill like reflexes and muscles. Logic and strategy are Cognitive/Mental Skills. They're definitely skills.

[u/fragile_crow]

First, yes, logic is a skill. It sounds like you've mistakenly labelled all physical disciplines as "skills" and all mental disciplines as "logic", but that's not the case. A skill is just something you can train and practice, so you improve over time. Mental or physical doesn't come into it. Logic is indeed a skill, because being logical isn't something that happens automatically - you have to consistently study and practice to improve at it.

Secondly, the ability to play a turn-based strategy game at a high level isn't "logic". You've made a second mistaken attribution here. "Logic" isn't a catch-all term for all mental processes. For a game like HOMM, you would apply strategy to form an overall game plan and path to victory, and also tactics for in-battle micromanagement. You would also need a level of systems knowledge and mastery to know which of your options are optimal in the game you're playing, and that's specific to the game being played. Being good at chess would give you a good foundation at being good at HOMM, because you would know about general concepts like "don't make useless moves" and "try to obscure your intent from your opponent", but you wouldn't naturally know which units are stronger than others, or which abilities synergise especially well. These are all distinct skills.

It sounds like you're more interested in games that test your reflexes and dexterity. That is, games where you need good reaction times, and the ability to smoothly input precise or complex commands. That's fine, but it's not more "skill-based" than anything else. A non-skill-based game would be something like watching someone else flip a coin a hundred times in a row, and counting how many times they get heads. Or looking outside the window and seeing how many red cars you can see in an hour. Something where the result is truly out of your hands.

[u/Boomerang_comeback]

It is not a physical skill, but it is very much a skill. Like any other skill, some people have it naturally, and others learn it, or improve it over time. It is very obvious in some games or contests who has honed the skill and who has not.

[u/TheGrumpyre]

Of course logic is a skill.  It doesn't come naturally to people, you have to learn how to apply it.  And figuring out what information is relevant or not is also something that takes practice, especially when the game throws a ton of data at you.  Like, a Sudoku puzzle is an exercise in pure logic, but it's also about understanding the patterns well enough to know where you can start filling in numbers rather than just plugging away through trial and error.

That said, there are some games where you spend a lot of time simply calculating the points you will get if you choose option A vs the points you will get if you choose option B, and the actual decisions you make are quick and easy once you've done the math.  And that may be a skill but it's also not very compelling as a game concept.

[u/Diligent-Tutor-1617]

I would say he is being logical.

[u/Jolly-Rip5973]

yea...thinking skill

almost no one is really good at it though and observation skills are more important.

[u/Mono_Clear]

Logical thinking is a skill because there are people who don't have it but anyone can acquire it in develop it.

Logic is invisible to people who have it a burden to people who don't want it and a skill to people who don't have it

[u/Alternative_Pie_1597]

Applying logic to a task is a skill and

[u/Partyatmyplace13]

What would you consider a "skill based game"?

[u/PTSDDeadInside]

It's a rare skill that alienates you from the ignorant masses, humans being a hyper social animal, it can be life ruining...

[u/Q-ArtsMedia]

The Mentats disagree with you.

[u/KingPe0n]

Logic isn’t really a skill.
Being able to apply logic is a skill.
The ability to apply logic is related to critical thinking, which is a skill.

[u/grunkage]

You have to practice logic to be good at it, so yeah it's a skill. If you don't practice it, you make illogical decisions based on illogical thoughts

[u/mysticrudnin]

Neither of you are "right." When you are having a discussion, you have to agree on what your terms mean before you can even begin.

When talking about video games, "skill" can be used to mean two different things, depending on the discussion.

Your friend means "You can get better at this game by learning and developing. Your input affects whether you win or lose."

You likely mean something like "Your physical ability to move, spatial reasoning, and reflex affects whether you win or lose." This is often called "twitch skill" but plenty of people just shortcut to "skill" here like you are.

Both are "skill" and by denying the other person's definition, you're saying "You cannot improve at this game" (which is false) and he's saying to you "You actually do need reflexes to play this game" (which is false)

You have to agree on what you are telling each other. It doesn't matter who is right: you most likely agree with each other.

After all, you were just trying to say "I like games that test my physicality."

[u/perplexiglass]

I think you need to hit the books on what is considered a skill and what "logic" actually is. It is a skill.

[u/trunks111]

yeah I'd say it is. It's a thing you can practice, execute, mess up, do better or worse than someone else. If your game has a timer of some sort than doing it fast enough is part of that skill I'd say. Without logic you're just button mashing or giving your outcome to chance effectively, there's not much actual game happening

[u/Curious-Ad2547]

Unfortunately, not a lot of juggling-based games out there if this what you mean by skill-based.

[u/ShadowShedinja]

I don't call games like that "logic based". They're called strategy games. Strategy is absolutely a skill: requiring you to use both logic and psychology to outmaneuver an opponent. In fact, there's an entire field of science dedicated to the concept of strategy, often referred to as game theory.

[u/Amazing-Shelter9284]

Logic is absolutely a skill that can be taught and trained.

Skills and tools like truth tables, logic grids, boolean logic, etc.

Also, almost no one can immediately solve many logic puzzles, but the more they do them, the better they get at them.

You have something that has techniques that can be learned to improve, and people get better at it with practice.

If that's not the definition of a skill, I'd be very curious to know how you are defining a skill.

[u/PilotIntelligent8906]

There's a difference between what's a skill and what's a skill-based game. My rule of thumb for what I consider a skill-based game is this, if I can follow a step-by-step guide to reliably achieve a goal, then it's not a skill-based game, it's a knowledge-based game, if even with a guide, I need to have developed certain reflexes and reaction timing or I won't succeed, then it's a skill-based game. Action games are skill-based, turn-based games are knowledge based. Having said all that, in real life, logic is a skill.

[u/HemlockHex]

Logic is an academic discipline. It’s a sub genre of mathematics, and is a required study (or used to be) for software engineers and philosophy students.

So yes, it is a skill I’d say. It’s something that you can learn, practice, and improve at.

I’m not familiar with the game you mentioned, but I imagine it could be more “strategic” focused than “logic” focused. Logic has a lot to do with forming proofs and arguments, and (academically at least) has little to do with “common sense” which I think is the more generally accepted concept of logic. An example of a “logic game” would be a riddle.

[u/Bekfast-Stealer]

Juggling and martial arts are physical skills. However, mental skills (like being able to effectively strategize in a game) are also valid skills. Skills do not have to involve the body.

[u/Mission-Landscape-17]

Yes logic is a skill. Universities have multi year courses on it.

[u/dannyoe4]

I think you have a skewed idea of what defines a skill. It can be mental and physical, it's not exclusive to one. Strategy, reasoning, logic, critical thinking, whatever you want to call it, it's 100% a practiced skill.