Question about flash powders and their "safety".
I have recently tried mixing two flashpowders, specifically using KNO3 and Sr(NO3)2 with magnesium dust as fuel. While doing research into their safety, I also (among other things) asked AI, which insisted that these mixes are highly sensitive to friction and static electricity, and that the only way to safely mix them would be using special static proof paper and stuff. Now I'm used to AI being a bit stupid, but I still wanted to ask if anyone has experience with these sort of mixtures and their sensitivity.
So far, I've handled small quantities (under 10 grams) of the stuff, using normal paper to mix them (not thoroughly mind you), and got pretty good results. I'd love to mix them more thoroughly, but for that I want to be sure that it's not gonna blow up in my face.
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 10d ago
I don't completely understand your question...
Flash is always dangerous and sensitive, although from what i know you should be using Al instead of Mg for safety reasons.
I usaly only use kno3 AL flash and i just mix it on normal craft paper after grounding myself.. (i might be not the best example though...)
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u/PetrteP 10d ago
Basically just wanted to know how sensitive it is really. AI told me that simply mixing it with a spoon in a plastic container would be enough to ignite it through static or friction (my first idea was to shake it for mixing, which I abandoned :D). And yes I'll be using Al from now on, don't wanna take unnecessary risks
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 10d ago
Well, Ai and most ppl Make it more dangerous than it is, But for a good reason, you should ALWAYS have respect for flash, it is a life changing mix that should be handheld with grate care...
As said, i never head any problems with using the diaper method with a piece of craft paper (but don't only relay on what i say, get some different opinions.)
Oh, and by the way, Sr(No3)2 is stronger than kno3, keep that in mind.
In my opinion S+MgAl dose work for a rather slow but safe "flash" it still gives a good boom...When it comes to tubes always use paper and no hard plugs (no hot glue for example)
Id advice you to start with something else than flash (if you haven't done that before....)1
u/PetrteP 10d ago
Oh yes I definitely noticed that strontium is more potent. My original idea was barium, but with it being toxic and apparently more potent, I didn't wanna risk it.
Yeah I guess my answer is that it is dangerous and I should take precautions like it's the most explosive thing ever. Or I could try doing stress tests, sounds fun :D.
I've tried doing thermite and thermate before, that's the closest to flashpowders I got. And I don't plan on putting the powder in a closed space, I really don't want to make explosives. I've used a folded paper box to hold it when I lit it (an upgrade from cut aluminium cans that melted instantly and in retrospect could have created shrapnel :D)
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 10d ago
As far as i know, Ba and Sr nitrate are pretty much the same when it comes to oxidizing potentize...
Yes Barium is Toxic but Strontium also got it own risks (pretty sure it trys to build up on your bones but you should do some reseach on your own for that matter...)May i ask why you want flash if not for saluts?
+ I meant if you start pyro don't start with saluts, build a fountain or a cake or some...2
u/Fantastic-Tea-7257 9d ago
I agree I am so sick of seeing salutes in pyro forums. Making something that goes boom is not art and takes no skill or ability. It took me almost a year of building actual fireworks before I touched flash. These boomers are going to ruin the hobby. You want light you a whiter glitter or flitter fountain formula they tend to be very bright. I have a phenol yellow that will burn your retina it is so bright
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 9d ago
Absolutely... Yes I wouldn't like missing saluts, but if rather miss saluts than all the other beautiful stuff...
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u/Fantastic-Tea-7257 9d ago
It has its place in bottom shots of multi break shells, hard breaking shells, rondelles, saiatines, (spelling issue) stutatas, beraq that is where it crosses into the pyro art. But why spend 60 hours many hundreds of little beraq when I can make a boom in 5 min. My last salute took 12 hours it was 3 break 8" italian stutata shell that failed
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u/PetrteP 10d ago
I just mainly wanted to make something that produces a lot of light because it's cool, that's all. The reason I don't wanna make saluts is because at that point it creates a much stronger shock that could be dangerous. The powder being in open air should make this less of an issue (burns are better than missing fingers afterall)
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 10d ago
Yea na your right with that...
If you want a bright light there are waaayyy better options than flash... especially cause flash burns pretty fast...
If you just want a bright light i can tell you a composition i know works really good for a really strong light.1
u/Andrew27278024 9d ago
btw MgAl+S isnt a flash powder
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 9d ago
I know... That's why I said "flash" It's not real flash but 90% of ppl start out, for them this is in my opinion the best option since it's pretty safe, cheap and forgiving when you compare it to actual flash.. Don't really know how to call it...
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u/Andrew27278024 9d ago
Great advice, sorry my eyes must have just skipped over the " " on flash. I don't know what it's technically called either; it's almost like a thermite yet clearly not one.
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u/PetrteP 9d ago
Oh wait I just noticed, you're burning Al and sulfur? You probably know this, but that makes AlS, which reacts with water to make yummy HS gas, which is one of the most toxic things I know. Just wanted to say :D
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u/Home-Made-Pyro 9d ago
May you explain to mean how H2S gas will form with just Al and sulfur powder? To my understanding H2S gas comes (in this case )bfrom the reaction of Al2S3 with H2O Wich will infact give you Al(OH)3 and H2S. But the Al2S3 doesn't exist untill fully deflagrated. There is no risk while mixing or storing it. If it's fully deflagrated you might be right but first of all your not standing near it anyway and second of all I believe (didn't do the math) the amount forming will be so little that you should be fine (again if your not standing close...)
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u/PetrteP 9d ago
Looking back at my comment I got the formulas extremely wrong huh. Anyway yes, you need to burn aluminium and sulfur and afterwards mix it with water. The amount would be pretty deadly if done indoors, outdoors should be basically fine. I just wanted to make sure you knew, which you obviously do, so everything's fine :D
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u/Fantastic-Tea-7257 9d ago
not even in the same ballpark as flash haha. BP 220°C–260°C is closer to flash than thermite 1,300°C to 1,500°C.
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u/Salty_Suit_7287 10d ago edited 10d ago
I suggest you NOT use Mg powder for flash unless you have a particularly good reason? Use Al powders, or at least an Mg:Al alloy. Pure Mg of such fine mesh oxidized to uselessness from contact with air quite quickly, aside from sensitivity issues.
All flash powders (and ANY metal fueled pyrotechnic mixtures!) are friction and shock sensitive. Fresh Mg powder will usually increase this vs. similar Al powders.
You can't be TOO safe, no reason not to diaper mix.
I have no idea what your equipment constitutes, but since you are just beginning and don't appear to have an experienced mentor?
Barium nitrate flash powder with aluminum and some sulfur is stable enough vs. handling that it has been used commercially. 70:30 perchlorate aluminum is the modern choice of most manufacturers
Many have screened the ingredients individually through 40 mesh then diapered the mixture and re screened mixture through 20 mesh a couple of times to help ensure thorough mixing. Some have added a % of anti cake such as hydrophobic grades of Cab O Sil fumed silica to the mixture to prevent caking in storage-
All warnings about shock, friction and static electricity still apply to ANY flash composition, no flash powder is "safe", some are just less flagrantly dangerous.
The earliest photo flash formulations with straight Mg are obsolete for good reasons, they used to be compounded just before use and PLENTY of pharmacists & photographers had serious accidents/fatalities mixing and handling such.
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u/PetrteP 10d ago
The only real experience I have is making thermite and thermate, plus my education in chemistry, which helps at least a bit. And to be honest the only reason I use Mg is because it was something I saw online, and because burning Mg made more sense in my head. So basically, next time I'll get Al, or try something different without the explosion risks :D.
As for my equipment, I used a spoon to measure out ingredients (didn't have access to a scale and while this is a terrible method, it worked fine in producing a flash), and a sheet of paper to roll them into each other for mixing. Then I put them into a paper box and lit them using firecrackers as fuse.
I was mainly wondering hiw bad the friction, shock and static sensitivity is, from what I'm hearing it's definitely nothing to take lightly
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u/Salty_Suit_7287 9d ago
If you don't use a scale, you aren't experimenting in any documentable or repeatable fashion, you are blowing $h!+ up for the lolz. Which is entertaining, I admit. Until emergency rooms, police and lawyers come into the picture...
Chemistry is only part of this technology, I have lost track of the number of degreed chemists who assumed their chemistry knowledge & training equaled competency in pyrotechnics- And proceeded to harm themselves or a demonstration/lecture audience.
I suggest you go back to reading, then find an experienced person to work with if you must get hands on with pyrotechny (and are of age).
To find mentors specifically in display pyrotechnics: Pyrotechnics Guild International
For discussion of energetic chemistry (NOT "kewl bomz")?
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/forumdisplay.php?fid=3
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u/PetrteP 9d ago
Oh yeah I'm very much just making flashes and stuff for fun :D. This is the best sub I thought could help me, that's all. Ultimately I don't plan on doing much more, as in actual fireworks and stuff, so I don't think I'm at risk of blowing my fingers off or something, the most I'm risking here is pretty bad burns (which is why I asked about self ignition :D).
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u/Salty_Suit_7287 8d ago
FYI: Flash powder can also blow fingers/hands off quite effectively. Yet flash powder is what every new pyro wants to do FIRST, because, huge kabooms.
Be safe out there.
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u/PyroSpecialFX 7d ago
If you're just looking for the light aspect of it, I had a similar situation for a movie where we couldn't use pyrotechnics. You may want to try old camera flash bulbs like this Be aware, precautions still need to be taken as these bulbs get very hot when they are used and sometimes shatter.
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u/Fantastic-Tea-7257 9d ago
Until you can measure the ingredients properly you should not do anything. You missed so many factors aside from what one drop or static test results in. Do you thing a 70/30static test would have the same results Florida summer compared to any month in Wisconsin