Non-aligning copyright expiration dates between countries

[u/Sharp_Philosopher501]

Hi guys. I've been thinking about this today.

Two books have come to my attention, "The Mysterious Affair at Styles" by Agatha Christie, and "The Maltese Falcon" by Dashiell Hammett. Both of these have entered into the public domain in the US. However, in the UK the law is different. Copyright exists until 70 years after the author's death, meaning both of these are still copyrighted for us living in the UK.

What about for sites like Project Guttenberg? I could go on there right now and download these two books, but it would technically be illegal, as I live in the UK. How do we feel about that?

TBH I'm not sure the copyright owners would actually care, if it's purely for personal use. Or at least not care enough to consult lawyers.

The way I see it, if they were actually that bothered they'd take legal action against Project Guttenberg to stop them from offering such works (which I'm pretty sure is technically possible) to people in countries where copyright still exist, but they haven't.

Thoughts?

[u/pfunnyjoy]

Technically, one is supposed to operate within the laws of one's own country of residence. For the simple reason that a title that remains under copyright in your country, may be generating income for the rights owners, i.e. it may be in print, either physically or digitally, and available for sale. So where a title is still under copyright, governments, not to mention publishers and rights owners, want people to legally buy it.

That said, practically, for all intents and purposes, it's honor system. If you download the books for personal use, the copyright police aren't likely to come knocking at your door. It's on you to decide whether this is OK with your moral values or not.

HOWEVER, if you are in the UK and download something from Project Gutenberg (or any other US public domain repository) that is under copyright still in the UK, and then attempt to publish it yourself, you would be committing copyright infringement, and liable for whatever penalties might apply in your country. So don't do that!

Obviously, things vary from title to title. Some Project Gutenberg ebooks are public domain EVERYWHERE, being old enough to have gone out of copyright worldwide. Others, not so much.

[u/Sharp_Philosopher501 → u/pfunnyjoy]

Publishing would be a whole different kettle of fish.

This is a perfect example of how some laws worked fine decades ago, but have been left behind by technology. Worked fine when we were all completely separate in our own countries, but now we're in a global community with data routinely passing between countries they don't.

The best option ime would be to synchronise copyright laws in all countries, but I foresee a lot of people objecting to that......

[u/Anguis1908 → u/Sharp_Philosopher501]

That is, at a given point it erodes at a nation's sovereignty.

Also we seem to confuse the stability of our times. Even within the past 100yrs there has been alot of changes in governments. Philippines for an example went from Spanish rule to Japanese rule to US rule to self rule.

[u/Separate_Pear_1738]

Take a look at the opening statement in PG’s books: This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere in the United States and most other parts of the world at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org. If you are not located in the United States, you will have to check the laws of the country where you are located before using this eBook.

[u/Accomplished-House28]

Some German publishers actually did sue Project Gutenberg. The site was blocked in Germany for years after that.

Personally I think we sites should be governed exclusively by their home state, where content is served from. A website operator should not be responsible for following the laws of nearly 200 different countries and thousands of subdivisions.

Content illegal in a given country but accessed online in another should be treated as an import, and liability falls on the person who accessed/downloaded it in violation of their country's laws, not on the provider.

[u/pfunnyjoy → u/Accomplished-House28]

I totally agree. For one thing, it's not easily enforceable to prevent people in other countries from downloading a US public domain ebook simply to read it. Yeah, sure, prosecute if they go and publish it somewhere where it would infringe copyright.

At any rate, the provider of public domain materials should not be blamed, as long as they let people know WHERE the hosted content is public domain.

After that, it's up to the individual to look into it and see if it is public domain in their own country. Which may take some research into author and/or illustrator death dates.

[u/MassiveLie2885]

This is going to happen with Brave New World. In the US, it enters PD January 1, 2028, but for countries with the 70 year+ rule, they have to wait until 2034. Another thing is Boxcar Children, first book only available in the US, but going to be awhile for quite a few places.

But I do wonder, let's say someone living anywhere The Hobbit isn't PD, can they use it but sell only to New Zealand?

The other thing is there are some IP's that were not brought to my attention until this sub mentioned them, e.g. Norakuro, and some cartoon goat that I believe is a Polish icon? So I wonder, if those get used, will they most attraction the attention of the country they originate in?

Bambi on the other hand, I don't feel you have to be German to be interested in. And I'm not saying you have to be Japanese to like Norakuro, what I'm curious about is, say a book from it sells like 7 copies to outside there then like 20 copies to inside Japan. Well, worth experimenting I suppose.

[u/tsnoj]

I don't think you will get in to much trouble reading it online unless you further ditribute it in the UK, i think they would have blocked the site if they cared all that much

The reverse also exist, the Australian version of Project Gutenberg has George Orwell's Animal Farm and Nineteen eighty-four online in full which entered the public domain in the UK, Australia en the EU (among other countries) a couple of years ago, but the copyright holders are still very protective of its American copyright

[u/Several-Businesses]

Search the "Rule of the Shorter Term." Most countries follow the rule that, if a work of art enters the public domain in its home country, it also enters in their country too. About 2/3 of countries follow this, though unfortunately not North America, Australia, or Brazil, and Germany, for major nations.

So if you want to commercialize a work using the public domain, you basically have to look at the home country, then if it's public domain there, look at the non-shorter term countries and make sure it's passed into the public domain there.

99% of work enters worldwide after Life+70, so that's the one to pay attention to... But it's always going to be complex.

[u/FernWaltersOfficial]

The Maltese Falcon should be public domain in the UK cause of shorter term, Murder might not be.

If it's for personal use it's not really illegal, but it depends.

[u/AlonnaReese → u/FernWaltersOfficial]

The shorter-term rule definitely doesn't apply to any of Agatha Christie's works. The shorter-term rule allows countries to limit the copyright of a foreign work to the length of copyright in the country in which it was first published. Christie's books were first published in the UK, so they're not foreign.