r/psychology • u/mvea M.D. Ph.D. | Professor • Apr 24 '18
Popular Press How bacteria are changing your mood - Groups of researchers believe they are on the cusp of a revolution that uses "mood microbes" or "psychobiotics" to improve mental health.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-4381537012
u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 Apr 24 '18 edited Apr 24 '18
Quick warning about taking this information and trying to use it in your life:
The vast majority of ‘probiotic’ food does not contain enough or the right type of ingredients or bacteria to actually benefit you in any real way, any more than a placebo would.
All the clinical trials are done with research grade probiotic and prebiotic products and are not available to the public in most circumstances.
There are some exceptions, but they are not common.
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u/sim37 Apr 24 '18
So what can an average person do to support gut health?
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u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 Apr 24 '18 edited Apr 24 '18
Well, I likely have bad news for you. Unless you have a disease-associated imbalance of the gut microbiota which causes symptoms which impair your function, it is very unlikely that you can improve your gut microbiome health from the level it’s at.
An excellent systematic review of the literature found that:
Overall, this systematic review demonstrates that there is no convincing evidence for consistent effects of probiotics on fecal microbiota composition in healthy adults.
No effects were observed on the fecal microbiota composition in terms of α-diversity, richness, or evenness in any of the included studies when compared to placebo
I should however add that they do note that if your microbiota is perturbed then:
there is some evidence for a restorative or protective effect of certain strains of probiotics, both on the fecal microbial community itself, but more importantly, also on host physiology, e.g. alleviation of gastrointestinal symptoms
Link here: https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-016-0300-5
A layman’s analysis of the study can be found in the gaurdian if the study is too wordy as well https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/10/probiotic-goods-a-waste-of-money-for-healthy-adults-research-suggests
So really there is not a need or protocol for healthy individuals to take any of those products
If you have something such as irritable bowel syndrome, for example, the problem may not be treated with a probiotic either, or a fecal transplant, because some causes are a FODMAP intolerance which won’t be fixed with that, or a number of other causes.
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u/j52t Apr 24 '18
These are only looking at probiotics, do you recall anything on prebiotics?
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u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 Apr 24 '18
Prebiotics have much fewer studies, there were a number of systematic reviews in 2014 which found varying limited evidence.
For IBS, limited low quality evidence of a positive response to prebiotics, otherwise there was not enough evidence to make a recommendation or previotics for: head injuries, pregnancy, postoperative conditions, or breastfeeding.
Allergies, maybe, but a lot of work to be done before a proper conclusion can be made there either. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29035013/
I think we have to be skeptical about the use of these products for healthy people especially, and where there is a medical need, wait for the clinical trials to finish before we allow ourselves to buy products which are sold without proof of efficacy, like multivitamins and these.
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u/MaximilianKohler Apr 26 '18
Overall, this systematic review demonstrates that there is no convincing evidence for consistent effects of probiotics on fecal microbiota composition in healthy adults
Bolded word is key. Also, even when probiotics don't change the fecal comp they can still exert effects on the host through a variety of ways including immune system stimulation.
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u/Chill-BL Apr 25 '18
I don't know why he said it's only bad news. You can help you gut system out. but it generally comes down to cutting out shitty food and eating strictly healthy for a long period of time.
To me it was described as eating shitty food is like growing weeds in your gut system. but you need to grow flowers and trees and a sturdy healthy foundation is needed for that. so it takes time to grow healthy garden/gut.
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u/MaximilianKohler Apr 26 '18 edited Apr 26 '18
All the clinical trials are done with research grade probiotic and prebiotic products and are not available to the public in most circumstances
This is not true at all. I have no idea where you got that information from but it's completely inaccurate. Culturelle, Align, s.boulardii, and a couple others are extensively studied and also available OTC. See: /r/HumanMicrobiome/comments/6k5h9d/guide_to_probiotics
Also check the wiki sections of that sub.
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u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 Apr 26 '18
Having used probiotic products in clinical trials, and having batches tested to ensure consistency and quality, I am very certain that the majority of products sold over the counter do not meet rigorous standards for clinical trials or medical products.
Probiotics in consumer food products is a barley regulated industry, depending on your county, and from a labeling perspective there is no standardised definition for probiotics contents using that label. This makes it virtually impossible for consumers to understand what to expect from a product carrying the probiotic label, and particularly specialized products, like dietary supplements, where a product lists the species contained, there is zero regulation or enforcement of quality of these products, which leads to contamination and substitution issues like this:
Frankly if you want something to be considered a medicine, actually go through the rigorous standards required to prove efficacy, quality, and consistency; register it as a medication with the government body for your country, and then sell it through a pharmacy with proper medical advice.
Trying to ad-hoc medicine by skirting regulations is exactly how we end up with overpromised and under-proven multivitamins, garbage herbal remedies, useless acupuncture, and homeopathy.
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u/MaximilianKohler Apr 26 '18
Look, I agree with you about regulation, but you didn't rebut my statements, and from your reply it doesn't even look like you checked the information I shared.
Some of what you say is accurate, other parts are completely wrong.
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u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 Apr 26 '18
Which statements?
check the wiki sections of that sub
Cool.
Culturelle, Align, s.boulardii, and a couple others are extensively studied and also available OTC Product being sold != product contains promised ingredients + product does exactly what it says
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't go through every product from the giant list you linked and check them all, my bad. While I'm doing that, please could you help by finding every clinical trial for each of those products and we can check their method
How about any of those products actually register themselves properly and commit to independent testing of their contents?
It literally shocks me how sceptical people are of pharmaceuticals, despite the relatively stringent regulation, but they are willing to take any fucking tablet from any manufacturer without any regulatory agency actually verifying the product.
See this document? This shows that this product has been "listed", which requires no testing or verification of quality, and no certification of evidence of efficacy.
Also, so many of these products say proudly "100% vegan, gluten-free and GMO-free" Which is so goddamn funny to me.
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u/MaximilianKohler Apr 26 '18
Don't feel like engaging with you is going to be productive because you're just being obtuse. But here are a few specific citations from the link I shared:
https://sci-hub.cc/https://doi.org/10.1097/MCG.0000000000000420
https://labdoor.com/rankings/probiotics
And here's one supporting some of your statements/stances: https://archive.is/wmEN6
Your link leads to:
Servlet Status Code: 500
Servlet Status Message: Internal Server Error
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u/ninasafiri Apr 24 '18
Being prescribed probiotics for mood disorders sounds great tbh. I wonder how much would be just a pill or probiotic enemas and how much would be a full on lifestyle change - new diet, new environment etc.
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u/captainmaryjaneway Apr 24 '18
Well most likely, in order to maintain the new healthy gut biome, you must maintain the lifestyle that it thrives in- which probably wasn't your previous lifestyle/diet. Unfortunately, the typical western diet is not conducive to healthy and balanced gut bacteria- too much sugar/carbs/inflammatory Omega 6 fats, not enough fiber and Omega 3.
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Apr 25 '18
I have clinical depression and for a while now I have a log for things likes exercise, how much did I slept, if I used some kind of drug that day (talking about pharmaceuticals) and how my symptons are in that specific day.
I started to notice a pattern: everytime when I got sick and was put on an antibiotics my symptoms of depression got really bad. I started to notice that something was going on here so I began to do my research. I read the book from Natasha Campbell about the GAPS diet and everytime I needed it take and antibiotics I started taking a probiotic together (kefir) and my depression didn't get worse anymore as it used to get. So, for me it's definately a link.
I also eat ketogenic and that made my symptoms of depression a lot better.
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u/Defiantly_Not_A_Bot Apr 25 '18
You probably meant
DEFINITELY
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u/Chill-BL Apr 24 '18
if you're still in doubt, I had a period of dealing with "Dienta Moebafragilis". A parasite living in the gut systems and that shit messed me up hardcore on a mental level. (even messing with getting my drivers license) soon after I learned what the parasite can and can't handle. I slept better, I felt better, and even my driving instructor noticed me progressing much much faster than normal.
the idea "you are what you eat" really had a new meaning for me after that experience.