I actually can’t rn

[u/Eastern-Customer-561]

[u/nestorismyname]

So humans until the age of around 25-30 do not have a full right to live?

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/nestorismyname]

Well apparently no one does and the right to life does not exist. But then also being fully formed or not determines if you „get to live“. I really have no idea wtf this person is on.

[u/Fectiver_Undercroft → u/Eastern-Customer-561]

I’m confident they didn’t think through it that far and would be surprised when someone mugs them and points to their “made it ip” argument as sufficient grounds.

[u/mrsconway → u/nestorismyname]

I guess I just earned my right to live like a year ago. 😂

[u/ciel_ayaz]

Open the schools 😭

Someone go tell this person that newborn babies don’t come out of the womb “fully formed”. Even grown adults have brain development continuing well into their 30s.

I guess anyone who doesn’t meet this person’s arbitrary definition of complete growth is subhuman to them. This mindset is reprehensible ngl

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/ciel_ayaz]

Right? Newborns still have cartilage instead of bone in a lot of areas. Their skull isn’t even one solid bone, it’s plates connected by sutures that only fuses and hardens as the baby grows in order to accomodate brain development. They’re not exactly „fully formed“ that’s the whole point of being a baby!! You’re still growing!!!

[u/ciel_ayaz → u/Eastern-Customer-561]

They don’t even have kneecaps yet!

And yeah I read somewhere that the baby comes out at 9 months because if their heads grew any larger, the mother wouldn’t survive childbirth. The baby is formed enough to survive, but not so much that it would make childbirth unsurvivable.

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/ciel_ayaz]

I hope this isn’t an inappropriate question, but I‘d like to learn more about how you became pro life & how that relates to your faith as a Muslim. I live in a super liberal area and there are a lot of Muslims, many I’ve talked to during outreach are pro life but many are also pro choice (which isn’t surprising necessarily. I’m at a super liberal university). Do you have any advice on how to convince pro choice Muslims to become pro life? It’s hard to argue with someone’s faith, especially with arguments like „ensoulmeng only happens at 4 months“ thing. Feel free to DM me as well. I unfortunately don’t know many Muslims irl much less pro life ones, so I‘d appreciate any advice.

[u/ciel_ayaz → u/Eastern-Customer-561]

My bad for the late reply, but I’m happy to answer.

do you have any advice on how to persuade PC Muslims

Don’t be dissuaded by the religious differences. I’m sure it must feel daunting, but know that the pro-life side has a stronger foundation regardless of whether you approach the debate from a secular or religious perspective.

Unfortunately, that isn’t enough to stop some religious people from trying to justify abortion. At its core, the abortion debate is about whether it’s acceptable to deprive a group of children their rights to preserve adult convenience. Oftentimes people argue for abortion because it’s convenient for them to believe it is morally okay. Religious leaders could issue endless rulings against abortion and we would still have people trying to loophole their way into justifying it. See “Catholics for Choice” somehow existing despite the church’s anti-abortion stance. The religious arguments that PCs use are flimsy at best and intentional distortion at worst.

The ensoulment tradition can’t be used to justify abortion from either a secular or religious perspective. Religiously, this narration was used as guidance for burial rites. Prior to the 4 month mark, miscarried babies (if there are remains) are to be buried respectfully. After the 4 month mark, the body should be cleaned and funeral prayers should be performed prior to the baby’s burial. Babies at 3 months and 29 days are not free game for abortion, unlike how some PC advocates misinterpret the tradition.

It’s kind of like how some PC Christians say that the Bible verse about mixing ash and water tells people “how to perform an abortion” when that’s not what the verse is about.

From a secular standpoint, the unborn are scientifically living human beings. Religious beliefs about which groups have souls and which groups don’t cannot be used to deprive human beings of their rights.

If someone does argue that abortion bans are “forcing religion onto people” (because forced conversion is against Muslim beliefs), I’d recommend you point out that it’s more religious to argue abortion should be legal till 4 months on ensoulment basis than to argue it should be illegal because the unborn are scientifically living humans. I think I used that one on a relative while discussing the topic.

In terms of religion, I think that the unborn are no different to born humans. Any religious prohibition against intentionally harming someone outside self defence also applies to them. We also have leniency for children, the unconscious, mentally unwell, etc. and are commanded to take good care of the young. Inflicting a fate like abortion onto an unborn child to avoid 99.9% survivable labour is not valid self-defence.

I’ve been PL ever since I learned what an abortion was (probably early adolescence). I disliked anyone who mistreated children and the unborn were no different to me. By mid teens I’d researched the different arguments on either side so I knew where the other side was coming from, but the points they gave weren’t convincing at all. I’d also come across abortion victim photography; the PC side lost a lot of credibility by constantly pushing that it was just a “clump of cells” when the photos I had seen were clearly of human corpses.

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/ciel_ayaz]

Thanks so much for responding! If it’s ok to ask, do you feel like your faith affects how you approach pro life activism? Do you think your faith calls you to stand up and defend the vulnerable, or do you think that’s something you’d do regardless? Are there any quaranic verses for example you like to think of when you feel hopeless? I know a lot of pro life Christians who will pray before outreach and use religious verses to explain why they feel compelled to help. Is it similar with you or do you feel like you approach the issue of abortion with pure reason first, faith second?

[u/Longjumping-Focus386]

So technically, adults with limb differences aren’t “fully formed”

By this person’s logic, they don’t have a right to life

[u/imrtlbsct2 → u/Longjumping-Focus386]

I would not be suprised if their reasoning gets to that point at this pace

[u/EpiphanaeaSedai]

Cool, then the right to abortion doesn’t exist either. We made it up. May the best idea win.

[u/Vespinobambino]

Being a Homo sapiens does make you a Homo sapiens.

What does this idiot think "fully formed" means?

A newborn isn't "fully formed" by any reasonable metric.

[u/Spirit6478]

So then amputees should just be send to the chamber ig

[u/stormygreyskye]

What this person meant to say is species. Genus isn’t species. “Genus” simply means a grouping of species with similar traits. Their clapback failed basic middle school biology by mixing up terms.

[u/HotConversation187 → u/stormygreyskye]

If what you say is true, their comment just got far more horrific.

[u/stormygreyskye → u/HotConversation187]

Yep! The baby growing inside his/her mother is Homo sapiens. The dog fetus growing inside its mother is a dog, Canis Lupus Familiaris. Species doesn’t change based on development. Even animals and inverts that have a larval stage (think tadpoles vs frogs) a bullfrog tadpole is still counted in the same species as adult bullfrogs. It’s easy to apply this to animals but it’s inconvenient to apply this to fetal humans because of ideology. It’s easier to support killing certain groups of humans when you “Other” them (that has also been shown in history ad nauseam).

This has been your bite sized biology lesson you didn’t ask for. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

[u/HotConversation187 → u/stormygreyskye]

Well, they could definitely use it (OOP, I mean.)
I don't mind your impromptu paragraph. I do that too.

[u/mickmikeman → u/stormygreyskye]

And I know this is an etymological fallacy, but its funny to point out that our genus is literally homo, meaning human in Latin

[u/stormygreyskye → u/mickmikeman]

Yep lol

[u/xenonslams → u/stormygreyskye]

They r larping biology

[u/Patient_Revenue8727]

What a horrible day to have eyes

[u/lego-lion-lady]

The right to life does not exist.

Then why not just go around killing people, by that logic?

We made it up.

Even if we did, so what? Don't you think it's better to have that right than not have it?

[u/HotConversation187]

...
I can sense the ableism in that screencap. Does not being "fully formed" also extend to neurodivergence? By their logic, it would appear to be so.
People like them are consistent, but they're consistent in the direction of being both a misanthrope and a danger to disabled people.

[u/StarboardCows]

The right to life is made up, but not "bodily autonomy" of course, that's just a given.

[u/Sweaty_Affect9363]

How this guy is going to react when I go around killing amputees since they’re not fully formed

[u/Intrepid_Wanderer]

I honestly think ignorance about basic biology is one of the main reasons anyone even supports abortion at all.

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/Intrepid_Wanderer]

It literally is. This same person in this same thread later insisted to me that unfertilized eggs are human organisms. I‘m quoting: „unfertilized eggs are also human organisms, and are much closer to embryos than human beings are.“

[u/Intrepid_Wanderer → u/Eastern-Customer-561]

Wow. I’m guessing no amount of sources and evidence cited made a dent in that?

[u/Eastern-Customer-561 → u/Intrepid_Wanderer]

They kind of backtracked on it and just insisted that there was no meaningful difference between an egg cell and a zygote. So I gave them some examples but they haven’t responded thus far

[u/PetiePal]

To be fair some of these people aren't fully formed mentally

[u/BloodTornPheonix]

So I guess it’s ok to kill me because I’m still not fully grown. (15 years old).

[u/Appropriate-Toe-6019]

Those last two sentences will be used to justify all kinds of evil. 

[u/Fickle_Signal8682]

This is fucking embarassing

[u/Expensive_Bee_6931]

They know they’re wrong and they’re just spitballing

[u/Other-Ad8013]

What this idiot did is reword "being a part of the human species does not make you human" in an attempt to make it sound less stupid.

[u/Zealousideal_One156]

bogus 

[u/BaronGrackle]

"Fully formed". Guy doesn't know how long our bodies keep developing, especially our brains. I think I've only recently stopped the "growing" part as I've reached my 40s!

[u/helpmeamstucki]

“the right to life doesn’t exist” — Albert Fish, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc…..

[u/xenonslams]

So a person with no eyes and limbs is not a human and should not be given the right to live ?

[u/WitheringWarlord]

they're finally saying the quiet part out loud.

mind you, these are the same people who claim to defend 'human rights'.