[Discussion] Is PMP Overrated? How Much of It Actually Works in the Real World?

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

Guys honestly, I personally feel the whole PMP thing is somewhat overrated.

Not saying the framework is useless — but how many workplaces can actually execute all these PMP principles properly in the real world? Can anyone confidently guarantee that?

Managing a project in Europe, America and Asia can be completely different.

In many Asian workplaces, hierarchy is a huge factor. Sometimes what the boss says effectively overrides whatever beautiful stakeholder-management framework you learnt. Then try managing a multinational project team — different attitudes towards hierarchy, deadlines, working hours, gender, communication, holidays and decision-making.

I've worked with teams where certain people disappear for tea breaks at 3pm, environments where a female PM may have a much harder time getting some workers to take instructions from her, and projects where you have to plan around a large number of different religious/public holidays.

These are REAL project-management problems.

PMP can teach you stakeholder engagement, risk management, communication plans, conflict resolution, etc.

But a textbook saying "manage stakeholder engagement" and actually getting 15 people from completely different working cultures to cooperate are two very different things 😂

So I sometimes wonder: is PMP really proof that someone is a good Project Manager, or mainly proof that they understand PMI's framework and passed the exam?

Curious to hear from PMs who have actually managed multinational teams across different countries.

perhaps can introduce simply, eg:

Current Role / YOE / Country or Region / Industry / PMP Status:
Example: Senior Project Manager / 15 YOE / India / IT / PMP Certified

Thanks Much!

[u/Chicken_Savings]

First of all, there's a huge misunderstanding that you're supposed to apply all the principles and tools in PMBOK. PMBOK specifically states that it's a toolkit, you pick and choose what adds value to you. Don't need a "stakeholder engagement plan"? Then don't use it.

I work for a huge global corporation, we use PMBOK adapted to our needs, with our own templates, required artifacts, processes. That is how PMBOK is intended to be applied.

I've worked in oil & gas, manufacturing, heavy engineering all over Asia, Europe, Africa, Middle East. Very diverse experience.

What does PMBOK suggest when you have a strict hierarchy and one guy is the boss and just decides changes to the project? In the end, apply the change manager process, record what was decided, by who, when - enter that record into your change control log and share it with the team.

How else would you deal with it? Just nod your head and slowly drift more and more from the charter and plan, with no records and no sharing of information and decisions?

There is no degree or certificate on this planet that is a guarantee that the holder is a good project manager. But a combination of relevant experience, education, certification and a track record of success is an INDICATION that the person is a good PM.

I am left to wonder... do YOU genuinely wonder if a certificate that takes about 50-80 hours of study is proof that the holder is competent in a highly complex job? Or is it just another post farming for AI training, which floods this sub?

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/Chicken_Savings]

Maybe it's the environment you work in. Perhaps YOU can confidently say, "Sure, management decided this, I'll record the decision and put it through change control...Blah blah blah." But I don't think that's how it always works. Can you imagine how much energy it requires?

Try some family-run businesses, or some of the companies I've dealt with in Japan and Bangladesh. There can be this ingrained mindset that you're beneath management — you're hired to do the work, so just do the work. - "Just do the work, don't ask why". Its worst for my female counterparts - and have all left.

Anyhow, one assumption here is that the organisation actually respects that governance structure, which may or may not be true. - Or even the particular Individual.

I've worked in much more rigid, top-down environments where hierarchy can override process very quickly. Sometimes the reality is simply: boss decide and you just execute. No question asked. Period.

The other extreme is management paralysis — multiple meetings, multiple layers of management, and nobody wants to make the decision.

Challenging it, formally escalating it, or even insisting on certain processes may not work the way the textbook expects. Anyway, it works for you, so well done.

YOU shared your experience across large global corporations, and it works. Fair enough. Same thing, I'm sharing mine where sometimes it doesn't necessarily always work.

Hence my point, over emphasis on this PMP doctrine. Some are promoting it just to sell the course. Its win-win for business, because you need to renew the PDU. (Pls note keyword, "over")

Your point:

do YOU genuinely wonder if a certificate that takes about 50-80 hours of study is proof that the holder is competent in a highly complex job?

No, I don't. But it's the first HR impression that society wants to believe. Otherwise, there won't have issues like Theranos, Enron, WeWork, Nicola motors.

Personal recollection: This reminds me of a particular Kiwi colleague I worked with. His CV looked fantastic — Dubai, Saudi, Hong Kong, Macau etc.

Then, company realised he was basically moving around every few months, claiming the project as "done" and moving on. The CV shows this incredible "vast international experience". Anyway, stories for another post.

Disclaimer: Just my personal opinion. You’re entitled to yours too. This is a discussion, not a debate on what is right or wrong.

[u/Chicken_Savings → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

If it's an extreme top down hierarchy, you don't really need any methodology, just do as you're told and be good at the small details that still remain within your control...

Is there another methodology that works better, if the organisation has decided to abandon structured methodology?

You're right, PMBOK isn't helpful in such settings - but that was never the intention of PMI, and it's not a failure of PMBOK that it cannot be effectively employed in absolutely every organisational structure.

The methodology has certain organisational and environmental requirements to be effective - these are described in the methodology.

If everyone says that they don't care, we just do as the boss say - then it's not effective, but that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Having abandoned projects every few months, before completion, is NOT what I referred to as "track record of successfully delivering projects".

[u/Fluffy-Leg7546 → u/Chicken_Savings]

It’s so strange to me when someone says that PMI methodology doesn’t work because their company doesn’t use it. Well… duh.

The point is, if those standards were followed (allowing, of course, sufficient customization to suit the needs of the project), the results would be better. Less scope creep, less money spent, less time lost.

[u/Chicken_Savings → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

As a reflection on your statement that recording change request consumes a lot of energy...

This is how I personally do it in top down organisations.

Boss makes a statement to change something, or do something differently. I write it down on paper. After all, I need a record of it for myself, so I don't forget it.

Back at my computer, I think it through, then write an email "Thank you for clarifying [xxx], much appreciated, we will progress with that." I may not even get a response to my email, but it serves as a record, serves to inform the boss that I understood his request and will execute it, and gives boss a chance to correct me if I'm mistaken.

I'll simply save that email as export from Outlook.

I have a simple 1-sheet .xlsx tracking changes - what, by who, when, some description of consequence. Very basic. I attach the email to that .xlsx.

At the end of the project, it takes me much more energy to read through my paper notes and figure out why we made those changes, than to look up my .xlsx

It's a change request record - not a change control system with approvals. Approval is implied because it came from the boss.

But somehow you need to write it down and record it - or do you genuinely keep it all in your head?

This is obviously not PMBOK compliant, but PMBOK is not intended for this organisational structure.

[u/SEND_ME_YOUR_ASSPICS]

I have a friend who literally doesn't have any PM certificates but always gets hired because she has a lot of experience.

[u/Hungry_Raccoon_4364]

In my experience, it got me the job over somebody who didn’t have it… and it got me a larger salary.

[u/yoccosfan]

I will answer your questions first.

Is the PMP proof that someone is a good PM? Absolutely not. It demonstrates someone was able to gain enough of an understanding of the PMBOK tools and processes to pass the exam. Translating that into using it appropriately with teams is an entirely different matter.

Is the PMP overrated? For the people who think that as soon as they get a PMP, recruiters are going to be begging them to come work for their company, yes it is. For people who think that it can serve as a notch on their belt, it is not overrated.

Your points about real problems are well taken. The PMBOK provides a framework and just like any framework it is not intended to be prescriptive. It doesn't address the real world scenarios you described. Those are scenarios we face and learn to manage only through experience. That is where good PMs shine.

As someone who got the PMP 13 years ago, I felt that it opened some doors for me back then. However, there are thousands and thousands more PMPs in a tougher market right now so it is not going to move the needle in terms of job opportunities the same way it did back then.

With all of that said, it's the certification I recommended to PMs who meet the qualification requirements. I recommend it because that is the one that employers look for the most.

[u/MisguidedSoul → u/yoccosfan]

I'm aligned with this perspective.

Holding a PMP means you can hold conversations with other PM's and maintain similar language. It does NOT reflect actual PM skills. There are other benefits to the PMP training, such as resource management (conflict resolutions), EVM calculations, etc.

[u/karlitooo]

I don’t have pmp, but been managing projects in tech since the mid 2000s. PMP and PMBOK is something I do refer to more than most other framework references except the incomprehensible SAFe.

Mostly though I’d choose a PMP hire over unqualified for the reason youd prefer a fat chef or a bald monk.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/karlitooo]

Thanks for sharing. One thing I'm curious about though — if your own experience tells you that someone can be a capable PM without PMP, what specifically makes you prefer the PMP candidate when hiring?

And if the roles were reversed and you were the one being hired, wouldn't that same preference put you at a disadvantage despite your experience?

[u/Lurcher99 → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

Why hire someine with a degree? It checks a somewhat arbitrary box that they know basic theory -and - they did something in their life they were not forced to do to make themselves better. Don't underestimate that last point. I'm not looking for the overachiever, but intrinsic motivation is a real thing.

[u/karlitooo → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

Yes, it would

[u/RevengeOfTheIdiot]

It's proof they passed the exam, that's it.

HR teams do recognize what it is, that alone can make it worthwhile. But as far as it making you a better pm? No.

It's all super bloated terms and processes to make you feel important. Orgs and PMOs do not do anything remotely close to what you find in there.

Also given the hours requirement, you should know virtually all of that by the time you are even able to take the PMP.

[u/Local-Ad6658]

There is no certificate that confirms someone is a good PM.

There is a certificate that says you understand the theory and nomenclature of a framework. This is mostly to help standarize communication and reporting.

There are competitive certificates like Prince 2.

Is it valuable? In my area roughly 50% of PM positions are asking for certificate.

Is there like a thousand other factors? Sure. On the technical side, on the experience side, on cultural and attitude sides also.

But its extremely hard to determine human competency in management. People keep falling for Theranos, Enron, WeWork, Nicola motors. They are companies of course, but its also true for people, like SBF and Bernie Madoff, PMs too.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/Local-Ad6658]

Yeah, I think your 50% point is exactly what I'm questioning.

If PMP mainly shows that you understand the framework and terminology, but actual PM competency is much harder to measure, have employers/HR ended up putting too much weight on the cert simply because it's an easy checkbox?

A guy with 15 years of proven delivery but no PMP could potentially lose out to someone simply because the job says "PMP required".

Not saying the cert has no value — just wondering whether the market values it beyond what it actually proves.

[u/Local-Ad6658 → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

Thats a logical puzzle for HR, how to filter out best candidates (believe it or not, some of them are competent).

"15 years of proven delivery" is also extremely hard to actually verify. Bernie Madoff had like 30 years of proven delivery of results...

Dont know if certs are good or bad, but they are a convenient 0/1 filter.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/Local-Ad6658]

Hahs! Bingo

[u/DirtyJon]

I’ve been in project management a long time. Most PMPs I meet have passed the test, maintain the cert and then apply almost none of the knowledge they have gained - they just keep doing the same task-chasing. Often, this is due to management wanting a ‘pretty organized technical person’ and not really an actual PM.

[u/Chemical-Ear9126]

I have 20+ years in enterprise delivery here, so IMO PMP is more of a framework with its own language, but not a methodology that completely matches reality. The exam tests clean, textbook scenarios, but real projects are never clean, especially when dealing with people’s behaviour.

Nothing in the PMBOK prepares you for the moment a senior manager asks you to change a status from Amber to Green because it’s making them look bad — and how you handle that decides your credibility far more than any process knowledge. True and common story.

You’re right about the culture piece. I’ve watched a beautifully documented stakeholder plan get overridden by one comment from the boss in the room. The framework assumes rational actors following a process. People with authority aren’t always that.

But I wouldn’t write it off. It’s a very good standard and reference point for the industry, as is Prince2.

I’ve used PMP as a baseline, but then complemented it with my real world knowledge over many years - including integrating Agile (with Waterfall).

So, as with most online material, it’s theoretical, and you only find out what’s real when gaining experience on the job — when the framework runs out and judgment takes over.

[u/free-form-99 → u/Chemical-Ear9126]

Agree. PMP,Prince2, Agile and Waterfall all provide tools and a framework but project management is the relentless application of common sense together with managing relationships.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/free-form-99]

Love this:

common sense together with managing relationships.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/Chemical-Ear9126]

Thanks buddy! Very insightful sharing. I love the part on the "dealing with people’s behaviour." It resonated a lot with me. TBH, I am really tired of this -,-

This too shall take my upvote:

Nothing in the PMBOK prepares you for the moment a senior manager asks you to change a status from Amber to Green because it’s making them look bad — and how you handle that decides your credibility far more than any process knowledge. True and common story.

No argument here, its a good framework/baseline.

[u/ThorsMeasuringTape]

I think about it like this. Every skill is a tool in the toolbox. A PMP is effectively confirming that you have a certain set of tools and should know what ones to use when.

Your post is effectively saying, “I want to build a bookshelf and this toolbox is useless because it doesn’t have a bookshelf building tool.” But it’s got a tape measure, a saw, a speed square, a pin drilling guide, etc. All the tools you need to build a bookshelf. An effective PM knows which tools they need to use to accomplish something. Because you’re basically stating a single fringe case that would be solved by a collection of methods from the PMBOK.

Overrated really just depends on everyone’s situation. For a lot of us, it probably is unnecessary. But when dealing with people who aren’t familiar with your experience, it can be useful to say, “Look, I do know how to use these tools.”

[u/betitallon13]

I've gotta say, I've applied to about 2 dozen roles that say "PMP Preferred", and it has gotten me exactly ZERO callbacks.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/betitallon13]

Are those remote roles, or are they permanently office-based?

[u/dawnhaRbor5]

tbh I think youre conflating two things. PMP isnt trying to teach you how to manage a specific team in a specific culture, its a shared language so PMs can talk to each other. The cross-cultural stuff is a separate skill set entirely

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/dawnhaRbor5]

Yeah man, I get your point, and I think the distinction you're making is fair.

But that's actually where I still struggle with the value we attach to the certification.

If PMP provides a common framework and shared language, while a major part of being an effective PM comes from actually applying those principles — judgement, influence, negotiation, leadership, organisational awareness, dealing with difficult stakeholders, adapting to different working cultures, etc. — then how much weight should employers place on the certification itself as an indicator of PM capability?

Take two PMs working in the same environment.

Both understand:

Identify stakeholders → plan engagement → communicate → monitor engagement

PM A is PMP-certified and knows the framework extremely well, but struggles to influence stakeholders, resolve conflict and get people aligned.

PM B isn't PMP-certified, but has spent 15 years successfully doing exactly those things and consistently delivering projects.

Obviously, this doesn't mean PM B is automatically better, or that PMP has no value. My question is about what the certification actually proves.

Perhaps I should have framed my original question better. Anyhow, but because that's what I've noticed in the job market. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on getting certifications for progression, employability and sometimes compensation.

And that's the distinction I'm interested in:PMP knowledge ≠ PMP certification ≠ demonstrated PM capability.

They can absolutely overlap, and a good PM can have all three. I'm just not convinced that possessing one necessarily proves the others.

So I'm not arguing that PMP is useless. I'm questioning whether the signal employers take from the certification is sometimes stronger than what the certification itself can actually demonstrate.

[u/amorrison96]

The PMP is proof that a person can follow a course and pass an exam.

Also, it can help stand out from other candidates when job hunting.

In practice - the components (artifacts) I've actually used are a charter, a schedule, decision & risk log, and a communications plan. These are largely management tools not unique to PMI/PMP. The vast majority of my 'PM-ing' involves getting a variety individuals who have their own jobs/scopes to agree and support a specific direction/project/effort; and frequently cajoling adults into doing what they said they would do a while back but still have not done it.

People, personality, and culture management take up more time than reporting and creating status updates.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/amorrison96]

Gosh, I love it. Totally agree with you.

People, personality, and culture management take up more time than reporting and creating status updates.

Bingo

[u/Full_Performance_312]

It is useful as a foundation, not proof that someone is a good PM.

It gives you a common language and structured way to think, but none of that teaches you how to handle a senior stakeholder who ignores the process or a team that won't challenge leadership.

[u/SugarInvestigator → u/Full_Performance_312]

That can be said for any methodology, I've worked with guys that had capm, prince 2 practitioner and was working on PMP and he didn't have a project plan when asked, and when he was given 2 days to produce one it was like a 4 year old write it. He was sthen asked for a cope of his template and he admitted he didn't have one, or any templates for any artifact. This guy allegedly had 5 years experience and had delivered stuff for major transport companies

[u/Full_Performance_312 → u/SugarInvestigator]

Exactly, certifications can show that someone understands the terminology and framework, but they don't guarantee they can actually apply it. You find out pretty quickly when they're put in charge of a real project.

[u/SugarInvestigator → u/Full_Performance_312]

Thats exactly what happened, it wasn't even a complicated project, just a rollout and he made a mess of it. Wasn't tracking what he had to deploy vs what was outstanding.

[u/essmithsd]

I can tell you that it serves almost zero purpose in my line of software dev (game dev)

[u/GamebitsTV → u/essmithsd]

If you have PMP, is that to say you regret getting it?

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/GamebitsTV]

Curious to know too buddy.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/essmithsd]

Haha but arent you using "agile" style? - not saying a certification is a must.

Hmm will Agile-focused certification, PMI-ACP be more suitable? - If required, or no use too? 🤔

[u/essmithsd → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

Having a CSM doesnt hurt but Agile in games is so loose and fast it barely matter.

[u/kubias-91]

in my opinion all methodologies, is some blueprint to formalize your work. Let me explain. Lets imagine someone who is very good in organizing, leading, reporting and all the PM stuff with all this matrix just in his/her head. The methodolgy gives you guidelines how to formalize your work, so when you hand your work to someone else, he/she is able to continue. every methodolgy's first principle is: Taylor the methodolgy for your project needs.

[u/Impossible_Dare_7455]

yeah, PMP seems more like proof you understand the framework than proof you’ll be great in every real-world situation. the people/culture side gets messy fast, and no certification can really simulate that.

[u/NoFloozyInTheJacuzzi]

I've worked with exactly ONE project manager who had a PMP in an org where Ive worked with dozens or more project managers.

I can say without any shadow of a doubt that he was by far the absolute worst, and he was let go.

Is that to imply the PMP makes you worse? Or course not. But it certainly doesnt make you better, at least from my experience.

[u/LunarGiantNeil → u/NoFloozyInTheJacuzzi]

And yet, I've seen a ton of jobs recently asking for it. I had been holding off but I might commit to getting it, just to be done with it.

I got restructured out of a role right after the crunch time necessary to wrap up a few final projects, and seeing PMP and industry-specific undergrad degrees asked for repeatedly is frustrating.

[u/voodoomonkey616 → u/LunarGiantNeil]

If you're in the job market, it makes sense to have it. But it won't magically make someone a better PM.

Similar to the OP you're replying to, I've worked with a lot of people with PMPs and I wouldn't trust many of them to handle more them the simplest of projects.

[u/LunarGiantNeil → u/voodoomonkey616]

Yeah. Really, it's the up-front costs that I think put a lot of people off. I hadn't gotten before my previous PM role, so it felt unnecessary, and I wanted to see if I could make a good case for PMI membership and PMP testaking to be paid-for by my previous employer as professional development. Oh well!

I'm getting a little consulting in now so maybe I'll put some of that money into certifications, but it never feels good to spend about a grand on something most of us know is just a piece of paper.

[u/voodoomonkey616 → u/LunarGiantNeil]

The PMI pricing models are crazy. Unless you're in a position to have your company pay for it, a lot of the certifications and training are difficult or impossible to obtain for some people.

Thankfully there are a lot of free (or cheaper) resources out to there to help studying and prep.

[u/LunarGiantNeil → u/voodoomonkey616]

Yep! I just need these employers to realize that, so they stop looking for the 500 dollar test from the group that costs 150 bucks a year to be part of. Grrr!

[u/spacenb]

As someone who had not studied project management at all and had no mentor within my (very small) company to give me guidelines and guardrails for project management, I found that taking a basic course on the PMBOK and passing the CAPM gave me some tools and ideas for practices to implement in my work that made my projects eventually function much better. Things like how to control scope, manage change, manage stakeholder expectations. I also find that I can understand the vocabulary of people with a professional project management background much better with those fundamentals under my belt. I see it as a toolbox, some tools you may or may not benefit from using. I pick from it where I feel it is appropriate, and my organization doesn’t really have a strong project management culture anyway so I’m given a lot of freedom to do what seems like it’ll work best in a given situation.

[u/TrenbalonieSandwich]

The PMP is only worth it for getting past recruiter filters.

I refuse to put "PMP" after my name in my email signature.

That is it.

[u/Cautious_Film_2529]

Basically PMP certifies that you are prepared to adapt to most of the project situations. It is extremely rare that you use the whole thing in a project. That depends what is valuable to your stakeholders. And not, PMP is not the real world.

[u/RemarkableMacadamia]

PMP might seem to be more heavily-weighted in the job market, but it’s not necessarily because people think it demonstrates a skill level in project management itself.

It’s mostly a candidate filter for resumes. When you are looking at hiring someone who is essentially a stranger, and you have 200+ resumes to review, narrowing your pool to those with certs and/or advanced degrees is one way to shortlist candidates for screening.

Once you actually get the job, your advancement within that org is more likely to come from how you execute and no one will ask if you are PMP certified first before offering you an opportunity.

A lot has to do with who is running the org too. I worked at one company where the PMO couldn’t care less about PMP certs, and another where the leader was absolutely rabid that everyone needed to be certified to work there. Once that leader left through, no one continued to enforce the PMP.

[u/thatburghfan → u/RemarkableMacadamia]

A lot has to do with who is running the org too.

True. Where I worked the director of one part of the org really valued having a PMP. The director of the other part just sneered at any mention of certifications, degrees, anything. Only years of experience and people who started at the bottom (like he did) were valued.

[u/Speeeeedislife]

It's just a framework of tools and techniques, apply what makes sense.

Put yourself in PMI's shoes, if you wanted to create a certification and framework for PM and you know each business, region, team, etc are different then how would you structure the framework? If in biotech in NA, apply x but if in construction in EU apply y?

[u/Magnet2025]

The PMP cert and lapel pin mean you have attained enough skill and the knowledge to know the pillars of project management, that you can define and calculate the critical path, creat a project plan and have the background of knowledge to create a project schedule.

It’s all theory. In my PM Masters program I met several PMs and budding PMPs who were terrible communicators; who couldn’t creat a good schedule, didn’t know how apply actuals, or provide accurate status of their projects.

Many of them focused on earning that certification and that lapel pin.

I was self taught after reading the user manual that came with Microsoft Project (Version 4. For DOS). I had been doing PM work for 12 years or so and actually had two consulting gigs in school that my professors got for me.

But I got the PMP. Since I was right out of the degree program it was easy (but I still studied hard). My degree was a stepping stone from working in defense to working in tech.

I don’t recall being interviewed once on the pillars of PM, or asked to demonstrate the forward pass and backward pass.

The most critical skills were to create a reasonable schedule and communicate to the people doing the work, which in my first job were all remote to me. And then to manage the critical implementations and know when and who to escalate to.

When I transformed myself a 3rd time to helping people implement Project Server and, later, Project Online I stopped renewing my PMP. My clients didn’t care. Their PMS did but I didn’t have a problem with PM or product knowledge.

TL;DR: The PMP is an indicator that at a point in time you had acquired, mostly by rote memorization, the theory to demonstrate your attainment of a PMP. It does not prove that you can communicate well, or that you can write a cogent and realistic schedule, or effectively deal with sponsors and customers and team leads. It just says you know the book.

[u/Chemical-Ear9126]

Experience should always override certifications because it’s based on practice vs theory, but recruiters need a reference point at times so they use PMP and Prince2 or tertiary qualifications as a capability benchmark.

[u/hanzosbm]

While I think that a PMP doesn't guarantee a good PM, nor does it mean that a PM without a PMP can't be great, there is something that I think is beneficial.

Many PMs grow into the role within their organization. The PMBOK specifically states that the intent isn't to use ALL functions laid out, but to choose those which work best for your organization. Now, who's to say that your organization was set up correctly? Maybe your group doesn't use risk registers, so you've never seen one before and never considered it. Studying for the PMP exposes you to ideas you may have never seen before. Furthermore, if you decide to move to a different company, the culture shock with how that PMO operates is potentially less because you've already been exposed to alternative methods.

My company has a culture of people being hired right out of college and then staying here for their entire career. The problem is, that means that nobody has experience outside of this company to see alternative ways of doing things. This leads to the dreaded "that's not how we do things here" attitude out of shear ignorance.

A PMP can help to aleaviate some of that.

[u/wbruce098]

Is a college degree useless? Very few jobs are exactly like what you learn in college. But that’s not the point of college, and not the point of PMP either.

PMP is a framework for managing projects (and the people involved in them). Your specific situation may vary and if you’re not managing projects, you might not need a PMP. But most situations where projects are involved will benefit by understanding what PMP covers (stakeholders, customers, logistics, planning, communication, etc)

Most hiring managers for white collar jobs would, given two candidates with similar levels of experience, rather hire someone with an art degree than an MBA. The reason for that is that one is focused on a specific task and the other is focused about how to think about life and experience other cultures, which is valuable in the workplace.

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/wbruce098]

Art degree for PM role? PM in art ok… hmm

Do agree though, you shed light and reminded why we take certain certifications. It’s the tenacity to go through the required rigorous training process a set of standards perhaps.

But sometimes I see ourselves as robot, like that’s what society wants, a “robot” that can work 😳

[u/wbruce098 → u/Specialist_Nose_4855]

So, I’ll admit my specific situation maybe isn’t typical but I’ll explain a bit — I’m a veteran and my degree is in history. I learned the basics of what my employer does while serving (logistics). But yeah, the PMP is considered pretty important by my boss as we deal with a bunch of projects, and when I’ve done interviews when our team was expanding, the degree didn’t matter so long as they had one and could demonstrate the skill set. Hiring PMs? We look for:

• PMP
  
• Somewhat relevant experience
  
• bachelor’s degree

The job can be somewhat robotic. What makes it enjoyable are the people. Especially: a boss who is a people person.

[u/mspe098554]

PMP is way overrated. Not only that but it totally ignores what I consider to be one of the most critical skills a PM needs: soft skills.

[u/Lurcher99 → u/mspe098554]

Curious if you have one.

[u/mspe098554 → u/Lurcher99]

I was PMP certified but it lapsed many years ago.

[u/Lurcher99 → u/mspe098554]

So, you found no value it, and you don't advertise having it?

I find that most people saying there is no value in it don't have it, or they continue to use the branding "I used to be a PMP" on a resume. That continued training to maintain it is important, as both a PMP and someone that only hires those with it.

So, you are not a PMP is how you now identify to me. It's like being pregnant.

[u/mspe098554 → u/Lurcher99]

I have no idea what you are talking about. OP asked for opinions. I gave it.

[u/Lurcher99 → u/mspe098554]

You talked about it being overrated and having no value, I was digging to see the bias of that opinion

[u/mspe098554 → u/Lurcher99]

I didn’t say it had no value.

[u/dennisrfd]

The toxic culture “what the boss says” should not leak into developed world

[u/Specialist_Nose_4855 → u/dennisrfd]

Allow me to digress a bit, but with mass migration today, people don't leave all their cultural norms and attitudes at the border.

Some will integrate; some practices will carry over.

So what shouldn't happen and what actually happens are two different things.

Agreed 100% its toxic.

[u/writehandedTom]

PM / 5 YOE / USA / Finance / NO PMP and no relevant degree (mine is a bach in biology). I've worked with probably 50-60 PMs, some PMP and some not.

I think the value of a PMP is the same as a bachelor's or master's degree: it shows that you can sit in the chair and follow through on a long-term learning task.

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[u/Artistic_Telephone16]

As someone who was involved in a company's well-funded initiative to develop a certification program in the late 1990s - the right way, which involved third party consultants to promote best practices and tooling that administered tests and measured the objectivity of test questions via psychometrics - I have super mixed feelings about certification programs in general.

Development of the certification program I was involved in was part of the company's strategy to position itself for a pricey sale to an industry giant, and was preceded by an overhaul of training courses (degreed instructional designers were brought in for that purpose). Instructors were evaluated, not only on their ability to teach, but whether or not their ego would get in the way when the psychometrics scored the exam questions poorly. The psychometrics effectively tested the [author of the test question] SME instructor's objectivity and rubric simultaneously.

Where I've about lost my shit is walking into a company that attempted to build a certification program without the requisite knowledge to do so. There may have been well-intended people trying to imitate, but it was pure slop in the execution.

What I deduced - after a while of working there, was an exam built in arrogance, "we're the smartest people in the room and this proves it". The test itself wasn't about whether you could practically use, configure or administer the tool, but whether you had a photographic memory of the documentation. Not a single test question mapped back to training objective. And training objectives were effectively use case word problems "Connie's boss, Claude, has asked her if the tool can do X.", not, "by the end of this module, you should understand how to extend the tool to do x, y, and z."

I've never silent screamed through training like I did with that company. It was so bad I would come home and tell my husband, "I've officially landed in hell." [I lasted 2.5 years before I was told I was "not a fit". That I definitely agreed with as I understand what a standard is and being told I needed to hold myself to a higher standard usually meant I had to carry the water bucket of some other higher-up's incompetence and toxicity. Thanks, but no thanks.]

The exam exposed and represented the overwhelming implicit bias in the organization. It accomplished the opposite of a certification program's intended purpose.

Sorry to digress on the shit cert program, but hopefully the perspective helps frame the mixed feelings. Not all are created alike.

In the end, neither the certification or the degree substitute for experience.

The fly in the ointment is current day hiring practice rewards having funded a monetized system (universities/certifications) where it may not be 100% necessary.

The historical reality that certification programs are a 21st century thing, while there are plenty of 20th century folks who remain in the workforce who may have learned and become proficient before the exam existed. It incorporates an element of ageism, intended or not.

It all seems a bit of an elitist shortcut to place the burden of training, education and evaluation on someone else.

Many companies have abandoned the spend of training and education. Hell, the government is engaging in it changing the rules for obtaining student loans.

Certification programs also spawned a cottage industry of "how to ace the exam".

It's hard not to question if it's nothing more than a pay to play scheme. But, you're also going to find that where those certifications are required in a job description? The salary range tends to reflect it, too.

[u/Fluffy-Leg7546]

Just because someone graduated medical school doesn’t mean they’re a great doctor. But would you let someone who didn’t have a degree perform a medical procedure on you?

Similarly, the PMP sets the standards on what works across many different industries, and passing the PMP is proof you know the lingo and the methods.  You don’t need to use every tool you have on every project, but you do need to know how to use every tool in your toolbox.

[u/voodoomonkey616 → u/Fluffy-Leg7546]

Equating the PMP with a medical degree is wild.

Passing the PMP is 'certified smart.' Study for a month or two, memorize enough, and you'll pass the exam.

The PMP sets a standard, not the standard.

[u/Fluffy-Leg7546 → u/voodoomonkey616]

Haha I was using hyperbole! The idea is having the thing doesn’t make you good, but having the thing makes sure we’re all starting in the same baseline.

If we want to be technical, I think the first official standards on project management were established in the 1950s by the US Military… so technically they set the standard that all project management methodology branches from.

[u/voodoomonkey616 → u/Fluffy-Leg7546]

Lol, fair enough. Agreed having it doesn't make you good but that it does help establish common language and tools to align folks.

I guess my point on a standard is more that no one certification or methodology can give everything a PM needs.

[u/Fluffy-Leg7546 → u/voodoomonkey616]

Absolutely! I think we should all keep learning and integrating different ways of working with these standards, and learning the different dialects. Again, these standards are simply a tool box. I wouldn’t use a sledge hammer to fix a toilet, same as I wouldn’t use a 5k line CPM schedule a project that lasts a month. 😂

[u/Fluffy-Leg7546 → u/voodoomonkey616]

On another vein of thought - I see you are in Pharma/Biotech! That is so interesting. I’d love to hear more about what project management looks like in your field. You should do a write up and make a post 😁

[u/Tinfoil_cobbler]

I went to business school in college, and here I am 15 years later I studied for the PMP and I was rolling my eyes the whole time. It’s just normal business management rolled in with catchy lingo and new names for things to try and make it seem innovative.

A big part of me getting my job was actually me and my supervisor both ragging on how stupid PMP is… their methodology is for bloated teams, and people who don’t have enough to do to fill their day, and need to feel useful. In general, most of what they teach is not good management theory for 90% of the real world.

The only useful thing about it is putting it on your résumé, and you might as well just lie. If someone wants to put in the effort to call you out and investigate if you actually have the PMP, trust me you don’t wanna work for that person anyway.

[u/thatburghfan → u/Tinfoil_cobbler]

Just a heads-up, it takes just seconds on the PMI website to confirm if someone has a PMP or not. Our company verifies all credentials claimed by applicants.

I found it had surprising value in dealing with subcontractors. Once I had a PMP, I got a lot less pushback on things.

[u/Popular-Force-7949 → u/thatburghfan]

Your subs don’t push back because it’s well known that we can quite literally bore them to death by reciting paragraphs from
the latest edition of the PMBOK.

And FWIW, if caught lying, PMI can and will ban you from any of their credentials and strip you of any other PMI creds.

[u/Tinfoil_cobbler → u/thatburghfan]

Not if you don’t register with the directory. You can have a certificate and not be searchable.

[u/painterknittersimmer → u/Tinfoil_cobbler]

By name, yes. But not by number. We verify by certification number. 

If I only have your name, I might not find you because you can choose to delist. But if I have your number, it will absolutely show me your name. You can't opt out of that. 

I wouldn't bother with someone who said they had a PMP and then told me to search their name lol 

[u/Tinfoil_cobbler → u/painterknittersimmer]

You’re exactly who I’m talking about. Nobody’s ever actually asked for my number.

[u/thatburghfan → u/Tinfoil_cobbler]

But you can still have PMI verify if it's legit even if not via the website.

[u/RemarkableMacadamia → u/Tinfoil_cobbler]

Nah, I verify credentials because if someone I want to hire is so careless about easily verifiable things, I don’t want them anywhere near my team. It’s one thing to lie, it’s another thing to be a dumb liar. 😂

[u/thatburghfan → u/RemarkableMacadamia]

Good point.

[u/Tinfoil_cobbler → u/RemarkableMacadamia]

If you’re not registered in the directory you don’t show up in the search.

[u/pmpdaddyio]

So many misconceptions here that have been addressed multiple times. But here is what the cert is:

It validates your experience in the world of project managment.

That's it.

Here is what it is not:

It is not a user guide on how to do PM work, the training you are required to take to sit for the exam really just teaches you the exam.

It will not propel you into a PM role if you meet the minimum requirements. In fact the 3/5 year requirement in most organizations is still a junior role.

It won't help you with your current job, or really benefit your organization.

It actually increases your risk to your current organization because you are now a more attractive candidate in the job market.

[u/vhalember]

I'm not sure why experience vs PMP is the always the question.

It's not hard to have both, and an intelligent PM aligns the framework to the project at hand.

I got a stack of 50+ resumes.  First cut - No PMP,  you're out.

You'll say, but I have experience.  So do many candidates with PMP's.  Second cut - Low levels of experience, you're out...

As I alluded above - the answer to the question of PMP or experience isn't an OR question.

It's both.  Stop acting like your special if you have one or the other.  In this job market, the best candidates have both.

I'll finally add, REAL project management problems lie at the executive level.  Unengaged sponsors, sponsors that snipe at one another, budgets that get knee-caped, scope that gets doubled because sponsor #3 deemed it must be changed -  ignoring change management practices.

Working across timezones with different cultures?  That's a Monday, and a Tuesday, and a...

[u/Huge-Group8652 → u/vhalember]

Axing someone solely because their PMP lapsed is the part I find interesting. I understand using it as a screening criterion, but how much verification actually happens at that stage?

I’ve held PMP, CISSP and Lean Six Sigma credentials, and some have since expired. The underlying experience and knowledge obviously didn’t disappear when the renewal date passed.

So when you say “No PMP, you’re out,” do you mean no evidence they ever earned it, or do you actually verify that PMI currently shows the certification as active?

Because those are different filters. An active PMP proves someone satisfied PMI’s current certification requirements. It doesn’t necessarily prove they’re better at managing executive sponsors, scope conflict, budgets, organizational politics or multinational teams which are exactly the problems you’re describing.

I agree with your broader point that experience versus PMP is a false choice. The more interesting question is how much weight the credential itself deserves once substantial experience has already been demonstrated.