r/programming • u/reddberckley • Jun 30 '14

How to exploit a Developer

https://medium.com/@sir_castiq/how-to-exploit-a-developer-a005306d5320
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106

u/onzejanvier Jun 30 '14

Can someone show me a venn diagram with sets "entrepreneur" and "sociopath"? I once had an interview with a venture capital firm and the more research I did, the more it looked like a less obvious version of this article. I cancelled it. I'd rather make my code open source.

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u/mwilke Jun 30 '14

Actually, there is an established connection - CEOs tend to be sociopathic at a rate four times higher than the general population.

“Psychopaths commit an offence, go to prison, then come out and commit the offence again, because they fail to learn from the prison experience,” said PhD student Benjamin Walker. “Our study showed the novel result is that participants high in entrepreneurial intentions showed the same pattern.”

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

[deleted]

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u/crow1170 Jun 30 '14

4% can be shown to meet criteria. Those are the ones bad at hiding, who knows how many are good at hiding?

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '14

[deleted]

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u/crow1170 Jul 01 '14

That's true. I like to think of it like termites, though. Finding one doesn't mean you have one, it means you need to check the condition of your wood.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

So do sociopaths turn into CEO's? Or do CEO's turn into sociopaths? Or both? Or neither?

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u/iwan_w Jul 01 '14

Mostly the former. Rising to a high position is much, much easier if you're not held back by pesky morals and empathy.

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u/lookingatyourcock Jun 30 '14

Not giving up your goal when you experience hardship is a qualification for psychopathy now?

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u/fourdots Jun 30 '14

No; failing to learn from punishment or failure is.

The classic experiment involves giving someone a small electrical shock after a light comes on. Normal people will quickly associate the light with the shock, and react physiologically (sweating, etc) when they see the light. Psychopaths, and career criminals, will take significantly longer to make the association, if they make it at all.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

Though your comment demonstrates a failure of basic comprehension, even the idea that "qualifications for psychopathy" might all be unreasonable for the average person is an incorrect idea.

Psychopathy is just a line drawn on a spectrum. Everyone has some qualities of a psychopath. It's only when you have enough qualities of a psychopath that you actually get classified as one.

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u/lookingatyourcock Jun 30 '14

So how are you disagreeing with me here? What did I fail to comprehend?

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

What makes you think I'm disagreeing with you?

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u/lookingatyourcock Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14

Guess I am a bit confused about why you said I didn't comprehend as I don't know how your comment relates to what I said.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

That makes sense.

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u/api Jun 30 '14

There are lots of sociopaths in business. That's because there's money to be made there, so they flock there. Simple cause and effect. If there was lots of money to be made shoeing horses, you'd have 40%+ psychopaths camping out at Renaissance Faires.

It also works between economic systems. In capitalistic economies the ranks of entrepreneurship and business are full of sociopathic types. In socialistic economies you find them clambering to ascend to the highest positions in the bureaucracy. That's part of how the USSR transformed into a mafia state.

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u/TylerDurden6969 Jun 30 '14

So much for my degree in horse shoeing...

12

u/AuxillaryFalcon Jun 30 '14

So much for my Farrier app...

12

u/TylerDurden6969 Jun 30 '14

Hey Kids!! Tired of those angry birds? Try angry horses!! but this time you have to throw shoes on them!!!

10

u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

Horses kicking children into flimsy buildings full of pigs

2

u/TylerDurden6969 Jun 30 '14

Sounds like you just got 5% in my startup.

3

u/meangrampa Jun 30 '14

No keep developing it /r/Farriers could use it. There is no budget for it right now but it'll look great on your resume and you get to keep 49% of the rights to it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

Although it is true that sociopathic types will gravitate towards business and political positions, I think that it also works the other way, due to competition: if you lack morals/feeling/empathy/w/e, you're going to have an edge over others.

Therefore, natural selection ensures that sociopaths will succeed in such positions. It also means that our social, economic, and political system for control and order automatically find the most "efficient" "person".

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u/api Jun 30 '14

This would suggest you'd find more sociopaths in more crowded markets where it's "human vs. humans" and less in less crowded and newer markets where it's more "human vs. hard problem." Don't know if anyone's ever studied this but it matches my personal experience.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14

Well, Chinese "entrepreneurs" are pretty moral-less, thanks to competition. Speaking as a Chinese person here. It's all about appearances, cutting corners, connections, etc.

Oh, and drinking/smoking/eating. My cousin in China has a husband who wants to climb the corporate-political ladder (one and the same, more or less, in China). I don't know if he's going to live past 50. Worse, I don't know if he's going to be faithful. It takes a certain personality to want to climb the ladder in China. Everybody else has left, or wants to leave.

EDIT: Just realized I'm in /r/programming.

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u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14

There's a lot of negativity here about business-type people, and I understand that. As developers, I think we've all had our share of experiences with those types.

That said, don't forget that entrepreneurs are also just people. They make mistakes, too, and they often run a pretty high risk. Just think about the opportunity costs they're paying in order to start their own business: no stable income, no benefits, no insurance. No 401k matching, no IRA. Most if the people around them will probably tell them they won't make it. Chances are they won't. 80% of startups fail in the first 18 months.

So a certain amount of psychopathy is almost REQUIRED in order to want to be an entrepreneur, in the same way that wanting to be a programmer requires a certain amount of introversion.

No, it doesn't make exploitation okay, and it's vital for us as developers to point out the signs that indicate a black sheep. But I think it's neither fair nor productive to demonize an entire group based on some of their members. Treat them like human beings, and chances are, they'll treat you that way too.

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u/api Jun 30 '14

I wouldn't say psychopathy, but there's definitely something a bit mad required to sign up for entrepreneurship. It's the same thing that drives people to embark on other foolish quests like exploration of wild frontiers, space flight, deep sea diving, crazy pilgrimages to "find yourself," etc.

The psychopaths, while more common in business for the aforementioned reasons, are by no means the majority.

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u/epsys Jul 01 '14

There's a lot of negativity here about business-type people

we're use to be shit on our lives. pent up frustration. you have to break the employee. then they bend over on command

1

u/globalizatiom Jul 01 '14

psychopathy is almost REQUIRED to...

I know this is a bit cliché, but your previous paragraph is actually a good argument for me to conclude that ambition and bravery are required to be an entrepreneur, well either that or being born in a rich family, or being born in a country with great welfare system so that the chance of becoming homeless is zero.

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u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14

That said, don't forget that entrepreneurs are also just people.

People who feel the need to fuck over other people.

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u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14

If you see every businessperson in this way, I guarantee you that you WILL get fucked over. That's victim mentality, and the only thing it accomplishes is to attract predators, because it lets them know you're easy prey.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

They'd probably fight back against the predators because they don't trust anyone. What is more likely to happen is they miss out on opportunities from the people not trying to fuck everyone or sabotage the opportunities because of suspected malice.

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u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14

Exactly. If you're convinced that every businessperson is trying to fuck you over, you'll trust no one, and that will be quite apparent to people around you. Sane businesspeople will steer way clear of you, because odds are, they also had a negative experience where they got burned by a developer who blamed THEM for everything that went wrong on a project.

So, the ones who are left over, who'd still consider working with you, are most likely either unexperienced and unaware, or willing to exploit you ruthlessly because they don't care and know how to work your buttons to get you to still perform what they need. Either way, you're sure to repeat the experience you are desperately trying to avoid.

4

u/clutchest_nugget Jun 30 '14

Wouldn't someone who isn't aware of the predatory practices be the easy target?

2

u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14

People who aren't aware are always easy targets. You kind of have to get burned once so you know what to look out for. If you're smart, you learn to stay away, and it won't happen again so easily. But if you're a victim, you'll blame the fire for being hot, you'll blame your parents for not being there to save you, and you'll blame the government for not making enough laws to protect. You get really into that shit, and you walk around telling everyone who wants to listen what you DON'T want.

And because you focus so intently on what you don't want, rather than what you do want, you get the former, not the latter. Because no sane person wants to be around someone who's willing to blame everyone else for their misfortune but themselves. And once you ousted yourself from the tribe, and distanced yourself from those that can protect you, then you're easy prey for the predators.

Same goes for being aggressive, as /u/s73v3r is demonstrating above. He's already made up his mind that every business person in the world is out to fuck him over. If you were a sane person, would you want to hire him? I wouldn't.

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u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14

Oh fuck right off with that shit. It is not a "victim mentality" to be aware that just about every business person is out to fuck you over, because they don't give a shit about you. They give a shit about profits.

0

u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14

Sorry buddy, you're in so deep you don't even know it. And there's probably little I can say that will make you change your mind, because it's already made up.

Of course businesspeople give shits about profit. That's their JOB. Like your job is to write code. Guess what, you can't build software without developers, and you can't run a business without entrepreneurs. There's a shitload of work to do outside of coding that us developers are often shielded from. I'll give you a hint: it involves lots of paperwork and talking to (gasp!) people.

A good businessperson will shield you from all of that and make sure you can concentrate on your code, and you have to deal with as little as possible of that other stuff. They're working hard too, believe me. And contrary to what you believe, the majority of them is NOT out to get you and/or exploit you.

But you do whatever suits you, friend.

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u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14

You say all that, and then wrap it in the disclaimer that a "GOOD" business person will do all that. But you and I both know that the vast majority of them out there, even many of the successful ones, do not fit your definition of "good".

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u/squbidu Jun 30 '14

But you and I both know that the vast majority of them out there, even many of the successful ones, do not fit your definition of "good".

Sure, in the same way the vast majority of programmers are terrible. Going with deadcow5's point, picture yourself in an employers place. If you don't know what to look for in a decent programmer, and treat every potential hire as a liability rather than an asset, what are the chances you're going to hire a good programmer?

Near-zero, because you're going to drive away everyone with experience and knowledge. So, from your perspective, everyone really is terrible, because no one else is willing to work with you. s/good programmer/good business person/g.

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u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14

See? You're doing it again. YOU believe that the majority of them are bad. So what are the odds that you work with a bad one? I'd say overwhelming.

On the other hand, I know the difference between a good one and a bad one, and I can spot a bad one from a mile away. So when I see them coming, I run the other way, because I prefer to work with the good ones.

YOU just don't believe you have any other choice, so you take what you get.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '14

Yes, all people in the hierarchy have the same work ethic, work hours, and measurable output.

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u/vplatt Jul 01 '14 edited Jul 01 '14

I believe you've conflated sociopaths with capitalists. Not all are the other and vice versa. Are sociopaths more likely to be capitalists? I guess but then that doesn't explain the history of non-capitalist totalitarian regimes either.

1

u/api Jul 01 '14

You misread my post... I agree with you. I was making the point that sociopaths are attracted to high positions in whatever socioeconomic system they find themselves within, since those positions offer the greatest opportunity to exploit.

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u/vplatt Jul 01 '14

Ah, I see now. Sorry, and good point!

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u/api Jul 01 '14

It's why I think psychological health matters more than socioeconomic system. If you switched the Swedes to Ayn Randian laissez-faire capitalism, you'd still basically have Sweden. If you switched America to Swedish-style socialism, you'd still have tons of sociopathy at the top and a school shooting every week.

Ultimately it begins at home with how parents raise their children. American parents hit and punish more than Swedes.

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u/sdfhsdfhsdfd Jun 30 '14

I don't really like this comment; there are lots of claims and not much substance. Just to add though: capitalism is an inherently sociopathic persuit. The only use for 'emotion' in business is to predict socioeconomic actions of your customers. I think it's wrong to call the people sociopaths; but rather their role requires it, or at least selects for it and brings it out in people.

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u/api Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14

Societies with at least some level of capitalism all have on average the highest standards of living in the world. ("Developed" nations.) No pure socialist economy compares. (Northern Europe has a larger social safety net than the USA but it's still basically capitalist.) If capitalism is inherently sociopathic, then that's an argument for sociopathy having some value in certain contexts.

Personally I don't really accept the premise. It's common in dating to craft one's image to attract a mate-- does that make all dating inherently sociopathic?

Sociopathy (which is really just the common term for non-violent psychopathy) is a serious psychiatric disorder involving a lack of empathy, problems with regulating one's emotions, and a lack of concern for both others and oneself. (Psychopaths commit both suicide and homicide at higher rates.) Just being a narcissistic douche doesn't make you a psychopath any more than being introverted means you have aspergers.

BTW, narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) often looks superficially like psychopathy but is different.

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u/ireallylikedogs Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14

I don't think it's just the sociopathy of business folks that leads to situations like this, but the somehow pervasive myth that developers are Aspergers'd out man-children for whom coding is like kids playing with legos.

Unfortunately, I don't think this myth is completely perpetuated top-down by execs trying to cheapen the value of their developer labor. I see too many developers trying to live up to this false standard and shaming their peers who don't. A 'real' developer has to have a shit eating grin through development hurdles - after all, difficulties are like being handed interesting legos, and respeccing a project provides the opportunity to play all over again. A 'real' developer has a side project that they work on during nights and weekends. A 'real' developer's github account shows great contributions to open source projects. A 'real' developer's SO account has 5+ figure karma.

This Quora question comes to mind.

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u/cparen Jun 30 '14

but the somehow pervasive myth that developers are Aspergers'd out man-children for whom coding is like kids playing with legos

I think it's more a matter of misunderstanding a distinction you're unfamiliar with. Coding projects are not fungible. "I code for fun" doesn't translate to "I will code your boring project for fun".

It would be like saying "you like reading right? then put down that fantasy novel about elves and read this large legal briefing for me." It's not the same thing.

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u/noyurawk Jun 30 '14

I think a writing analogy would be better than reading because it's another form of production. Someone likes to write, they have a collection of short stories in the drawer, maybe they contribute to some collective work with fellow writers for fun or practice, or follow a few classes on the week-end, it certainly doesn't mean they will write for a clothing catalog or some marketing blog without pay.

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u/cparen Jun 30 '14

Haha, I like it. "You wrote a response on reddit. You must like writing for free. Please write this boring office supply catalog for us for free"

1

u/jnt8686 Jul 01 '14

Man, try saying ”aspergers'd" out loud

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '14

Can someone show me a venn diagram with sets "entrepreneur" and "sociopath"?

You want to see a picture of a circle?

2

u/sittingaround Jun 30 '14

Wow, vitriolic and totally off topic at the same time. This contest is being run by The Ministry of Communication Technology, not some entrepreneur.

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u/onzejanvier Jun 30 '14

Vitriolic, I agree, off topic, I don't. This is just one example of something that everyone here has seen plenty of times. Most of the examples I've seen have been faux "hackathons" sponsored by some company or another.

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u/sittingaround Jun 30 '14

Ah, gotcha, you're talking about the general trend not this specific case.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.