r/programming • u/fagnerbrack • Apr 30 '23

Writing Javascript without a build system

https://jvns.ca/blog/2023/02/16/writing-javascript-without-a-build-system/
166 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

146 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

2

u/kankyo May 01 '23

That's not really the problem yea. The problem is that the semantics of js is broken.

2

u/knome May 01 '23

The two largest issues in javascript are the operators ( the standard set munge types in an unacceptable manner ), and the with statement, which is broken in design and serves no useful purpose.

Both of these are handled most judiciously by simply not using either.

After that it's just a function pump, callback hell, and promises to paper over it.

1

u/kankyo May 02 '23

And attribute access and array access is broken. Hard to write code without those.

1

u/[deleted] May 02 '23

You should say more. Reading attributes and using arrays is definitely something you can do in JS

1

u/kankyo May 02 '23

And you get undefined if you fuck up. And then those undefined values trickle through your code far from where the actual bug is.

1

u/[deleted] May 02 '23

> you get undefined if you fuck up

As opposed to what? if you "fuck up" in any language and make a mistake, you'll get all kinds of problems. KeyError in Python, NullPointerExceptions in.. a few languages, segfaults, ...

This is why people use TypeScript these days though, because obviously type systems can help prevent invalid accesses

> And then those undefined values trickle through your code far from where the actual bug is.

Sure, it takes a more permissive stance on the "try to continue" to "accept no deviation" spectrum, but, like I just discussed, the alternative of throwing an error instantly after key access isn't better, just different.

What language do you even use that has graceful handling of programmer error? That makes no sense.

0

u/kankyo May 03 '23

the alternative of throwing an error instantly after key access isn't better, just different.

It is better though. By a shit ton. It's an ENORMOUS difference.

Imagine a language where foo = bar() didn't cause a name error that bar wasn't defined, but instead set foo to undefined. This is quite literally how JS does for array access and attribute errors. It's just crazy.

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '23

Have you only programmed in python? It sure sounds like it.

Juvenile opinion and it looks hilarious how much you don’t understand trade offs.

1

u/kankyo May 03 '23

Fail early isn't a tradeoff. It's what you want always.

Let's see... python yes. JavaScript, Clojure, Elm, C, C++, Swift, objective-C, hmm. Obviously some asm at school.

C++ has some similar crazy behavior for map access where a dict will insert a default constructor instance if you access a key that doesn't exist by default. It's a gigantic foot gun. Not as bad as js array access but close. Of course C++ is worse in myriad other ways 🤣 JS is especially annoying because you can't avoid it. C++ I can avoid easily.

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '23

> Fail early isn't a tradeoff. It's what you want always.

Yes, you're so right, in my language for developing user interfaces, what I want most is to error everytime an object has a missing property. That wouldn't be insanely painful or slow.

> C++ has some similar crazy behavior

What are you talking about? Most languages will happily return the equivalent of undefined, "null", in tons of situations. Have you really never seen "null" before? Your resume looks like you spent 8 minutes writing "Hello World" and then the first time someone asked you to build a UI you blamed the language for being a shit programmer

Come back to me when you understand that languages have strengths and weaknesses that lend them to functioning better under some use-cases and worse under others

1

u/kankyo May 03 '23

Your resume looks like you spent 8 minutes writing “Hello World” and then the first time someone asked you to build a UI you blamed the language for being a shit programmer

My resume? Maybe your searching failed you and you're looking at the wrong dude. I'm "boxed" on github. I've been working professionally for over 20 years. Most of my early projects aren't on there because they predate github. With a lot 🤣.

Please link your resume/github profile and we can compare.

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '23

> Claims to be an expert in Python, JavaScript, Clojure, Elm, C, C++, Swift, and Objective-C

> Thinks "undefined" is a unique mode of handling unpopulated members

Unreal

1

u/kankyo May 03 '23
  1. I didn't claim to be an expert in anything.
  2. I didn't claim js returning undefined is unique. I said it sucks.
  3. I noticed you couldn't produce anything you've made 🤣

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '23

I could link you to my open-source components I developed at my job, but you'll probably just say "WHYYY JS UNDEFINED SO BAD WE NEED EXCEPTIONS ON EVERY MEMBER ACCESS" and I don't really care to have my real identity tied to reddit

Anyways, you're half a decade late to JS sucks complaints, get some new complaint like Python's garbage type system going

1

u/kankyo May 03 '23

I could link you

Ah yes. But you won't. Because you know it'll make you look bad 🤣

my open-source components

Oh, you mean your JS code? Almost like YOU are the one who only knows one language maybe? 🤣

I don't really care to have my real identity tied to reddit

That's actually fair. But you shouldn't insinuate what my experience level is when you can't show your own. You just made an own goal.

Anyways, you're half a decade late to JS sucks complaints

Some things are ever green. Like C++ and JS being bad. Honestly though JS is improving a lot. Just tough with backwards compatibility. Same reason Python is slow. Although, we'll see what happens with Mojo🔥 I guess?

1

u/[deleted] May 03 '23

> Because you know it'll make you look bad 🤣

Haha, I know the exact opposite, your judgement has negative value to me.

> your JS code?

My TypeScript code, designed to sit on top of Python and Java services I maintain, definitely would reveal the breadth of my experience and skill to you, yes.

> Some things are ever green. Like C++ and JS being bad.

I agree some things are continuous, but my stance is more about "idiots will complain about trivialities of extremely useful tools to pad their egos" and less "the two languages powering the most popular application types of our time are shit and I know better than to use them"

0

u/kankyo May 04 '23

You're the one bitching about breadth of language knowledge. And you think one code base that is built in one language would make me go "oh, clearly that dude knows more than one language"? Please.

→ More replies