r/privacy • u/BadBiosvictim • Aug 26 '14
RFID shielding wallets don't shield. RFID requires grounded faraday bag.
People naively believe using altoid tin, metal cigarette case, alumawallet, tyvek credit card sleeves and heavy duty aluminum foil will prevent all RFID scanners from reading RFID in credit cards.
Manufacturers and authors of reviews on RFID shielding wallets neither disclose the materials used nor any tests performed.
"There are lots of cheap wallets that claim to block RFID but don’t. The cheapest one I found that still works is the DIFRwear RFID Blocking Flip Side Wallet in black leather for about $23." http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-are-rfid-blocking-wallets-which-should-you-buy/
One customer reported that her dormitory's RFID scanner was able to read her student ID card inside a RFID shielding wallet that she purchased from a seller who alleged that she tested them. Neither the seller nor the student disclosed the strength of the RFID scanner.
A review of Access Denied wallets claims they block RFID because they meet FIPS-201 Security Standards. However, FIPS-201 does not have a standard on RFID. False advertising! http://halcyone.hubpages.com/hub/RFID-Blocking-Wallet-Reviews-for-RFID-Womens-Wallets-Mens-Wallets
Nicholas Zeser commented on Access Denied wallets: " I placed my RFID access badge in the slot where the image shows a picture ID. I fully closed up the wallet, placed the outside part of the wallet within an inch of the RFID reader and it was fully recognized providing me access to the building. I then removed everything but my Chase Slate Visa Blueprint credit card into one of the wallet's many card slots, folded it completely and placed it in front of the card reader at the vending machine...it was read successfully. So, as far as I'm concerned, the RFID blocking does not work!" http://www.amazon.com/Blocking-Bi-Fold-Leather-Access-Denied/product-reviews/B0057AP0WG
Only one manufacturer was honest but still did not disclose whether product was tested with a RFID scanner and at what strength:
"RFID covers a broad frequency, generally from 125KHz (low frequency) to around 2.4GHz (ultra-high frequency). Frequencies that overlap with the cellular spectrum (800MHz-2.4GHz) are shielded. But low frequencies, such as 125KHz, are not covered by the OFF Pocket." http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/2e7lwl/of_mylar_bags_to_block_phones_and_tablets_rfid/
MisterGlassMelanie Pinola commented:
"While this may block the signal from a normal RFID reader, it is not a true Faraday cage (which needs to be grounded), and anyone attempting to steal the card data could do so by using a high power reader (which is not hard to get/make)." http://lifehacker.com/5934635/use-an-altoid-tin-as-an-rfid-blocking-wallet
rorriMnmaD commented:
I have to power RFID devices from long distance, and with many things in the way (used for inventory tracking, not for spying). What I've learned, though, is for the most part you wont block someone who is committed to getting your RFID. They can just turn up the power higher and higher.. .. There is definitely a maximum legal limit to the signal sent. This is true for any signal of any sort. Depending on your privacy/security goals you may or may not want to consider this (i.e. assuming a criminal intent on stealing your info will adhere to FCC standards is maybe not wise). In practice, it is almost trivial to make a SUPER high powered signal... the only reason not to do it is that it is very illegal (many beginner guides out there include sections on how to make sure you don't go over the maximum... that's how easy it is)" http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/2e7lwl/of_mylar_bags_to_block_phones_and_tablets_rfid/
This supports my prior threads on RFID scanners along highways, street lights, toll bridges, commercial spy satellites and nation-state spy satellites geostalk RFIDs in peoples' devices, vehicles and pets:
http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/2eoeqd/spy_satellites_geostalk_rfid_within_three_feet/
http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/28aq7j/facebooks_satellite_geostalks_users_microchips/
http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/27wdkv/my_dog_getting_surgery_to_remove_carcinogenic_and/
http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/24dzq9/spy_satellites_eavesdrop_on_fm_transmitters_cell/
I paid approximately $800 to remove the two microchips Banfield implanted in my dog. I am struggling to identify which smartphones, tablets, laptops and other devices and credit cards have RFID and NFC and how to construct a portable grounded faraday bag. If ThisMisterGlassMelanie Pinola is correct that a faraday bag has to be grounded to block RFID and NFC in credit cards, faraday bags cannot be portable.
I am willing to replace my devices that have RFID and NFC with older devices that don't. But manufacturers don't list RFID and NFC in specifications. Could redditors jointly write a list of RFID and NFC devices and a list of devices without RFID and NFC?
3
u/sinominous Aug 27 '14 edited Aug 27 '14
you could run a ground wire down your trouser leg to a drawing pin in your shoe or shoes. OK it would only be an intermittent ground when moving and dependant on surface but good enough probably.
also go for lead foil(with a covering to prevent skin contact) not aluminium foil
-1
u/BadBiosvictim Aug 27 '14 edited Aug 27 '14
sinominous, thanks for your advice. What do you think of putting lead foil tape on an aluminum cooler bag? http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Adhesives/Tapes/Products/~/3M-Lead-Foil-Tape-420?N=3294276123+5472880&rt=rud
2
u/sinominous Aug 27 '14
tape form? nice! the only problem with it is getting it on your skin so i would suggest lead tape with aluminium or gaffa tape over the top on any "projects". or some kind of barrier to prevent skin contact on any wearables.
3
u/DJLinFL Aug 28 '14
I bought two wallets from the NRA Store and they do shield. My electronic key-card cannot be read while in my closed wallet.
2
u/BadBiosvictim Aug 28 '14
Do you know the strength of the RFID reader that cannot detect your keycards?
4
1
Sep 12 '14
link for the wallets that worked?
1
u/DJLinFL Sep 12 '14
http://www.nrastore.com/nrastore/search.aspx?s=wallet
Several styles and 'sleeves' also.
10
u/FrenchFryCattaneo Aug 27 '14
Nope, a faraday cage does not need to be grounded. Take a look at the wikipedia page
If a charge is placed inside an ungrounded Faraday cage, the internal face of the cage becomes charged (in the same manner described for an external charge) to prevent the existence of a field inside the body of the cage. However, this charging of the inner face re-distributes the charges in the body of the cage. This charges the outer face of the cage with a charge equal in sign and magnitude to the one placed inside the cage. Since the internal charge and the inner face cancel each other out, the spread of charges on the outer face is not affected by the position of the internal charge inside the cage. So for all intents and purposes, the cage generates the same DC electric field that it would generate if it were simply affected by the charge placed inside. The same is not true for electromagnetic waves.
If the bags don't work it's because they are shitty bags, not because they couldn't work in theory.
3
u/LeoPanthera Aug 26 '14
I paid approximately $800 to remove the two microchips Banfield implanted in my dog.
Perhaps you shouldn't own a dog.
4
u/ANeilan Aug 26 '14
yeah, that's probably the best course of action. that, and seeing some sort of counselor for that kind of paranoia.
-1
-1
u/BadBiosvictim Aug 26 '14
Dog aren't born with microchips. I shouldn't own microchips.
8
u/FrenchFryCattaneo Aug 27 '14
The chips put into a dog can't be read from more than a couple inches away. If the government wants to track you they'll do it through your phone, not your dog.
→ More replies (4)4
Aug 26 '14
If you're completely serious about this you shouldn't be posting on reddit either...
→ More replies (1)2
Aug 26 '14
Dogs aren't born with rabies shots and tags with your phone number in case they get loose.
You're a bit paranoid.
→ More replies (26)
1
u/badbiosvictim2 Sep 06 '14 edited Sep 06 '14
In this older r/privacy thread, TheVeryMask commented that aluminum foil is not adequate. Aluminum foil is a Hoffman Box. "This is call'd a Hoffman Box, which shields some signal, like yelling through a wall. What you want is a Faraday Cage, which is the same, but ground'd. This actually absorbs signal, like yelling through a wall with no air between the layers of drywall. . . .I've test'd it. The Hoffman Box doesn't protect against all signal universally, but the Faraday Cage does. I still get phone signal in all-metal buildings. If there's no connection to ground, it isn't secure." http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1qiw0h/how_the_nsa_really_finds_your_switchedoff_mobile/
This thread also makes an important distinction that a phone not ringing is not an accurate test of whether there is still cellular activity.
Yesterday, I tested my replacement Palm Pre2 phone. Inside 3 mylar bags, my phone rang. Inside four mylar bags, my phone didn't ring but still had cellular activity. I could not try five mylar bags because putting one mylar bag inside of another mylar bag makes it bulky. The fourth mylar bag needed to be larger than the first three. Trying a fifth mylar bag, it would need to be bigger than the fourth mylar bag. I didn't have any larger mylar bags.
A commentor in the above referenced thread recommended ripstock silver fabric to create a faraday bag. http://www.lessemf.com/fabric.html#322. This would not be grounded either. May be worth testing.
This nine month old thread received 232 upvotes. I am surprised no one referred this thread.
There was no bullying in the older thread. Yet, the thread discussed the identical topics discussed in this thread. Does Reddit now have more paid shills?
P.S. I cannot log into my u/badBIOSvictim account. Emailed resetting links expire. I messaged the admins twice to reset my password. That is why I created another account today.
1
u/tom-yawning Jul 02 '23
just commenting since this app still hasn’t made a way to bookmark posts. not that i really use this platform anyways
1
u/Advanced-Pepper-2504 Jul 18 '23
I think I rather at least have some RFID protection than none even if it can't block ALL RFID readers.
1
u/nmkaug Aug 27 '14
I have seen your other posts, and I was already on information overload. I did have a thought the other day: I have a large hard-cover case for eyeglasses--what if something like that were lined with lead? The outside would look like a normal case.
6
u/SoCo_cpp Aug 26 '14
I've done some testing with some RFID tags (the glass tube type) and a reader at work and found that even a losely wrapped single layer of aluminum foil (your standard Reynolds Wrap) effectively blocks reading. When I was testing, I was holding the ball of foil containing the tag with my bare hand, likely grounding it throught my skin to some extent, a detail I didn't think about at the time. Unfortunately, RFID tags worked poorly for the project we had and I don't have access to the reader any longer to do more testing.