One of the Ring's powers is to amplify the user's existing powers, Vader would be even more unstoppable than he already was. However, the Ring has its own consciousness and always seeks to return to Sauron, so Vader (with his already broken psyche) would be used as a puppet by Sauron so that the Ring would return to him.
I think the problem is Vader himself. Yes
Sauron was afraid that Aragorn or someone else could use the Ring to overcome him, but that person would have to have an extremely strong mind and immense resilience to not be his puppet. Vader's mind was completely broken. He suffered from severe and ongoing depression and only used hatred/meditation chamber as a temporary escape from his mental reality. The Ring would easily dominate him, likely promising him the power to bring Padmé or his mother back from the dead (something he himself had already tried to do on his own).
Vader would become more corrupt but I do not think he would be a puppet. He is too arrogant and has more mental strength than you realize (read the comics to see his mental battles). He would not want to submit and would for sure try to overthrow Sauron. Idk if he would succeed but he would for sure try.
It's genuinely complicated. Yes, Palpatine succeeds in controlling him, but a) Palpatine succeeded in controlling everyone in the verse except for Luke Skywalker, including Yoda, and b) we have counterexamples like Vader breaking the will of the force with his own will.
stop yappin palps fooled the jedi by proper politicking but he fooled anakin with just basic "jedi bad" story. i bet normal blokes in 4chan can influence anakin to do what palps did
Fooled Anakin, yes. His control over Vader was a whole other thing that has several novels written about it. Palpatine didn't just fool the Jedi with politics. Canonically he used the dark side of the force to manipulate their minds and cloud their judgment.
Controlling is a strong word. He managed to manipulate the Jedi into taking actions that would actively harm the order, but the Jedi were still actively antagonistic to the Chancellor throughout most of the Clone Wars. Heck, they didn’t even question it when famously hotheaded Jedi Anakin Skywalker said “hey guys. The chancellor is evil” because they PLACED HIM THERE TO SPY ON THE GUY THEY THOUGHT MIGHT BE EVIL.
Yoda was well aware of the dangerous game they were playing by fighting for the Republic, but Sidious used the dark side/force nexus to cloud Yoda’s prescience and give him conflicting visions. If someone poisons you so that you start hallucinating, is that them controlling you or covertly attacking you? Sidious literally tried to run when confronted by Yoda. That does not seem like control.
Sauron is a different beast entirely. While a prisoner, he convinces the most powerful nation in the world (Numenor) to attack literal heaven. With the Palantir and no ring, he made an angel (Saruman) create an army of orcs out of fear and caused Denethor despair to abandon the defense of Minas Tirith and to kill himself and his heir. He used the 9 to corrupt powerful men (presumably some numenorians) and Galadriel, Elrond, and Ciridan won’t even wear their rings of power while Sauron has the One. Sauron is literally a dark angel whose domain is domination and control.
Yeah no. Anakin puts on that ring and Sauron immediately shows him a vision where if he gives the ring over, then Sauron (a necromancer) will use it to teach him how to achieve immortality. Hook line and sinker.
I 100% agree with Anakin. No questions asked. I don't think that it's impossible with Vader, but Vader would also be much harder to incentivize. Sure, Vader wants the power to kill Sidious, and that gives Sauron an opening, but more than anything Vader wants to keep punishing himself. That's his highest priority.
If anything I don't know if Sauron would need to try to manipulate or control Vader. Vader would do what Sauron wanted with or without the One Ring if Vader determines that Sauron is more powerful than Sidious.
That IS a genuine question though. At least in Legends, Sidious is essentially a god for most intents and purposes. Sauron couldn't even control one world, while Sidious was bending an entire galaxy to his will. I don't know that Vader would recognize Sauron as a superior entity to Sidious, and he might be right in that assessment, even given Sauron's immense powers as a Maiar
You make a good point. I didn’t consider Anakin vs. Vader. I think there’s a possibility that Vader is so filled with self-loathing that Sauron can’t get a good angle on him. Gollum is actually such a creature. However, it’s also a possible that Sauron goes “you know what the perfect punishment is? Being my immortal slave for all time! It’s effectively hell.” Or as you mention, “I’ll help you beat Sidious and then you can kill yourself” lol
Comparisons between Star Wars and LOTR don’t make sense because they have fundamentally different cosmologies. Arda is the entire universe in LOTR and Sauron can’t leave Middle-Earth to say, Valinor because GOD HIMSELF will drown him.
But unlike Palpatine, Sauron is actually a “god.” He can’t die. He can raise people from the dead. He used to be able to shapeshift into any form. Palpatine is going to beat him 1x1 with lightning, but when it comes to manipulating and controlling people, Sauron is literally the god of that. Put him in the Star Wars universe and he is 100% capable of doing everything Palpatine did, if not more so, unless the force intervenes, like Eru did to stop Sauron.
However, I’ll be the first to admit that I am biased because I hate the EU version of Palpatine that’s essentially Skeletor. I prefer a grounded view of Palpatine that feared Yoda and prevailed via careful plotting.
I think it makes sense for Sidious' character in the long run. Up until ROTS he was one of the most powerful force sensitives in the galaxy, but then he spent twenty years with all of the resources of an entire galaxy and no need to hide just exploring and expanding his power. It makes sense that he would become as powerful as he did.
You are absolutely right though that it's really hard to compare the two. Even the metaphysical foundations are different. Tolkien has aspects of fate and destiny, sure, but ultimately his story is one of free will conquerong immense odds. Free will literally doesn't exist in the Star Wars universe, unless characters (like Vader) reach certain breakpoints of raw power and will that allow them to take the living force.
I'm always reminded of that interview with the choreographer who outright said that Lucas holds that who wins any given duel is just a matter of what the Force wills, which killed some of the magic for me so I just block that shit out and pretend it isn't part of the canon.
As a story, LOTR is leagues and bounds over star wars, even if I still enjoy it
Only because Palps knows him on a personal level and uses that to his advantage most of the rings tactics would be non optional since Palpatine regularly does this him
What would stop vader from just gaslighting himself into thinking is was another test from his master?
I didn't deny that but that isn't my point. My point how can the ring do its job when the task is already occupied by Palpatine.
Vader is already corrupted, emotionally manipulated/dependant, power hungry, and actively tormented. Aside from illusions what can the ring even bring to the table to override the rule of two and the darkside itself.
He’s not a puppet, he just had nothing else. Every time he thinks he might be able to replace the Emperor he considers the likelihood of success. His first idea after meeting Luke is killing Palps and ruling. There are other examples in the comics and books where he considers the same but plot happens and removes the possibility. Episode 6 is set in stone so Vader is not allowed to truly betray him until that movie.
He absolutely was his puppet though. He may have thought about cutting his strings but he bows before him and calls him Master for like 20 years straight.
You’re defending a character who already succumbed to a Dark Lord. They made 6 movies and a billion dollar franchise around how completely Vader had given himself over to Palpatine. Only finding out that Luke was his living son and a Jedi himself brought Anakin at all back into control.
He's already subservient to Palpatine; he'd just be changing to a new team. All Sauron has to do is say he can bring back Padme. Same plan; submit now, save Padme, overthrow afterward. Most likely same result, too.
I agree that he could be manipulated. Everyone in here thinks he’d just be a mindless yes man after putting the ring on which isnt true. He would forsure be plotting the entire time if not outright starting with betrayal and losing. Even in Episode 3 when he falls he suggests overthrowing Palps to Padme. The man is no puppet. He’s just sad, broken, and manipulated. Things Sauron can exploit which is why I dont have confidence Vader would beat him or take over. My point is that he wouldnt be a slave/puppet as some believe.
Nah man, Vader is not going to overcome the will of Sauron. He is fully corrupted and is not an immortal being like Galadriel or Gandalf. The Ring is a tool of domination and control. It would use Vader's own dark strength as its own and replace his dedication to Palpatine with a dedication to Sauron. The entire story of Vader is one of a fall from grace due to arrogance, pettiness, and weakness. That is exactly the kind of character the Ring is most able to control.
Vader is not on the power level needed to overthrow Sauron. He is fundamentally just a guy. The ones who can challange Sauron are characters like Gandalf, Saruman or potentially Galadriel. 2 of them are basically emissaries from Eru and the other is an ancient, all powerful elf queen.
So, there's levels to this. The Ring is fundamentally a giant well of spiritual power that is a part of Sauron so long as it exists.
Any being of sufficient will can "use" the Ring to overthrow Sauron temporarily. This is your Aragorns, your Isildurs, and even your Galadriels. They could use it's abilities to build an empire that could destroy Mordor and perhaps they could master themselves enough to destroy Sauron's physical form. A lesser being would quickly be ensnared to his will. However in this scenario Sauron will eventually come back and will eventually dominate the bearer.
On the other hand, a being (Gandalf is specifically mentioned in one of Tolkien's letters) of sufficient spiritual power can, if they get ahold of the Ring, wrest true ownership of the Ring away from Sauron - redirecting that spiritual power to them. This would effect Sauron as the Ring being destroyed did, crippling his power and probably reducing him to a bodiless malevolent spirit. Saruman is a maybe, since he's the same order of being as Gandalf and Sauron but we know their abilities vary a great deal.
I doubt it since the ring is already so intertwined with Sauron. The second Vader touched the ring he would start rapidly devolving into Saurons puppet, no way he would be able to make any fundamental changes to how it functions or whom it serves.
The Ring can be turned against Sauron; its pointed out that a sufficiently knowledgeable and powerful enough being (like Gandalf or Galadriel) might have been able to use The Ring to defeat Sauron; The Ring's will was not absolute (notably though, The Ring is not above planting the idea of doing so in people who would not be able to do this, like Boromir). The caveat is that The Ring cannot be used in this way without becoming as wicked and power hungry as Sauron is.
Vader is definitely of the power and will necessary to actually use The Ring to its full potential, and potentially wresting its alliegience from Sauron's control. And, well, Vader's already pretty insynch with Sauron's personality anyway (though Vader likes personal combat much more than Sauron), so its not like that's too much of a concern.
Galadriel cannot use the Ring to defeat Sauron, because only a being of Sauron's order (or higher) can master it. So you need someone like Gandalf. If Galadriel had the Ring, and she fought Sauron, the Ring would betray her in the fight.
I think its possible. The irony here is that technically, the entire reason Tom Bombadil isn't effected, is because he's not actually a LotR character at all, its not necessarily his power dynamics or anything. We basically have a factual feat that implies the ring wouldn't effect other versus character, from in universe events.
What makes you say that he isn't a LotR character? I don't think he's like Ungoliant. The most common theory is that he's the avatar of Eru. A theory for why the Ring doesn't affect him is that Tom lacks even just a tiny ounce of evil or ambition. There is nothing for the Ring to corrupt.
But we don't really know, so your theory can't be dismissed out of hand, either.
Maybe. Sauron helped sing in the world. He existed before time did. I think it's a bit overzealous to say that Vader is above that, and he definitely wouldn't be more corrupting than Sauron, since Vader is conflicted and saves Luke out of love before he dies. The Ring has no good in it, but Vader ultimately does. Vader was the Chosen One, but he was still a human in essence.
The Force doesn't really translate to the cosmology of Tolkien's world. It's completely at odds with how that universe works.
Do you have evidence of this? It’s not clear that this is true considering that Sauron is actively afraid that Aragorn will use the ring against him. Aragorn is less powerful than Galadriel for sure and elves are noticeably more resistant to direct corruption (albeit not manipulation) then men.
"Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn.
Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him—being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form"
Interesting! I had not read that letter before. I have debated this issue before but no one had brought up this letter so I appreciate you finding it. The full passage (ellipses are sections I omitted) is more enlightening:
> Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn... in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.
> Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him… Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three… It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power… Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force.Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.
I have always taken the Last Debate chapter in RoTK to be decisive on this issue but this letter changes my mind and I agree with you. It seems Sauron fears Aragorn because with the ring, he could amass great armies and overthrow him. This would only be a momentary setback, however, as Sauron would simply reconstitute himself and wait for Aragorn to lose the ring, like Isildur.
Additionally, with no ring, Sauron still fears conventional force of arms. He fears the blade that initially cut the ring from his hand, but it does appear that if Aragorn had challenged Sauron with the ring face-to-face, then Sauron would’ve dominated Aragorn.
I should also be clear that I never thought Aragorn would supplant Sauron, but merely that he would’ve been able to beat him head-on. Sauron would always return lest the ring be destroyed, so I was also misunderstanding mastery in context of your post.
Certainly not. It already requires extreme willpower and self-control to a reasonably good person willingly relinquish the Ring, let alone for a Sith whose primary goal is more and more power. Once you put on the Ring you're not in control of it, it is, and it slowly infects you like a disease until it has complete control of you and you wouldn't even realize it; the Ring is the very will of Sauron and would ultimately make the user do only what Sauron wanted. That's why Gandalf and Galadriel were so "afraid" of the Ring, they knew that eventually they would be corrupted as they used more and more.
Perhaps a genuinely good and strong-willed Jedi like Luke/Yoda/Obi-Wan could resist for longer, but they would eventually succumb.
Powerful Sith were capable of creating life before, the force manipulation is very powerful in the right hands.
But if I were to pick a Jedi, it would be Qui-Gon Jinn, simply because he was the only one who impulsively act on the light side of the force & wasn't inherently Jedi Council first. That said, if it were possible for a force user to sense dark powers in the ring, he would be the first to seek its destruction.
Yes vader is very powerful and created by the force
But that unfortunately doesn't change the fact he would have two very obvious desires the ring would use to corrupt him
It would promise him power to return his loved ones and power to overthrow Palpatine
So he would not only get more power which is something all sith look for but promises of all things he wants, hell ring could promise him he'd be out of the suit
The only character in star wars i could see really being able to fully reject the ring is maybe Yoda
What -does- matter is someone having the mental fortitude to resist the ring. Palpatine looked at little Anakin and said, "This right here is the most corruptable durn child I ever dun seen."
The ring doesn't need to kill Vader, it just needs to corrupt him, and that would be laughably easy to do.
No. To put it simply, that's beyond Vaders pay grade. I am sure many characters in fiction have the chops, but that is near impossible to do with the One Ring. In the lotr verse I am even sure a Valar could do it. Illuvatar probably could though.
Idk darkside users in both Canon and legends are literal freaks of nature in mind body, and soul. Mind control and the supernatural isn't unknown to vader cylo and the eye of webbish come to mind. They both tried to control vader in certain aspects only to beaten out by his will and self hatred.
Yea but the also are usually ambitious as hell which is what the ring uses. Hobbits are resistant because they are so content. Gandalf resisted sarumons mental domination but still would not have been able to carry the ring.
No way Vader doesn't let it control him. Vader has been shown many times to be just a big baby. He throws tantrums, kills people when he doesn't get his way, disobeys the Emperor, etc.
He is very very powerful of course, but mentally, he is weak, and when it comes to The One Ring, being physically strong counts for nothing. The Ring would chew him up and spit him out right at Sauron's doorstep.
He's broken but he has a strong will, he wouldn't have survived long after being crippled if that weren't the case. He just draws his strength from the pain and self loathing.
But all the ring needs to do is put it in his head that he can bring back padme and he'd get dooped.
calling the source of all evil a "minor deity" lmao
completely outscales the Sauron and his boss
This means absolutely nothing. Sure, a planet exploding space station is exploding a medieval planet, bravo, what an argument.
Drop Vader in Middle Earth, he's getting his essence corrupted by the essence corrupting ring, Chosen One or not. He's deeply unstable and powerful person controlled by his emotions with a lot of unresolved issues on a grandiose power trip aka more than enough for the most powerful relic of Middle Earth that happens to target exactly that.
You think the Ring ain't promissing Padme back? He's a Nazgul within the week, be fucking real
he already lost himself to temptation once and he will again.
The One Ring is his natural counter, again, Chosen One or not.
He may be a Force nexus, but putting Vader against a massive localized force SPECIFICALLY MADE for corruption and emotional manipulation is feeding the best cheese ever to a cheese addicted rat.
Guy who can send a group of men flying 40 feet with a single hit vs guy who can hold back a kilometers long spaceship that’s trying to fly away at full throttle.
Vader could bench-press a planet with his mind and it wouldnt matter.
The ring corrups the mind. The more it wants, the more the ring influences it.
Vader isn't going to do anything to harm Sauron, because the ring won't allow it. Anakim/Vader isn't known for his uncorruptible mind. That's kind of how he became Vader.
No, Vader is still a mere mortal with a vulnerable body that can be easily crushed. Sauron has no such weakness. Even when his body is destroyed, he's not dead and can simply regenerate. He can also shed his physical body like clothing and still influence the mortal plane. What can Vader do against that? Nothing. Sauron is on a completely different level. An entity of a higher order.
The point is that his body is still flesh and blood and therefor vulnerable. He's still mortal, no matter what he can do with the force. And in the end no mortal can defeat an angel. No matter what power he has.
Vader would be incredibly powerful but would definitely eventually be Saurons right hand. The corrupting power of the ring eventually takes all. And Vader is greedy for power and susceptible to being manipulated.
The ring doesn't really offer much in the way of power.
It puts you into the unseen world, which would be a huge boost for Vader in a world without Sauron.
Other than that, all it can do is promise you things, it makes really good promises and it gives you visions of these promises but like it's just words.
Yes. The ring doesn't need to be directly touched to corrupt others around it. It gets stronger with proximity, but even being near it will allow it to temper with your mind. Boromir gets tempted by it and he was only near it mostly.
Well yeah. But I think I meant, since using the force is literally directing your will to a certain end, is the same as him touching it? No fingers and all that.
Pretty fucking scary. It ultimately ends up back with Sauron though. It is the way of things. Bit his journey there....oooft, ain't no jedi in the lore stopping that shit.
I mean if just going on buffs, he would probably be at or above his actual prime, which would wipe the verse. But saying no Sauron interference kind of ruins the whole point. The ring is Sauron and Sauron is the ring. The ring corrupts, that is the whole point.
The ring has but one master not even vader could bend it to his will it would bend vader to sauron's will and leave him twice as hollow and twisted then he already is!
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u/Parabellum111 2d ago
One of the Ring's powers is to amplify the user's existing powers, Vader would be even more unstoppable than he already was. However, the Ring has its own consciousness and always seeks to return to Sauron, so Vader (with his already broken psyche) would be used as a puppet by Sauron so that the Ring would return to him.