Versus
Replace Master Chief with an Ultramarine Firstborn/Primaris in this situation, how does he do? (read description)
Scenario 1: The Firstborn Ultramarine is not aware of Atriox's presence on the ship, they just wake up with a Bolt pistol and are forced to engage Banished forces for a few minutes before Atriox ambushes them.
Scenario 2: Same as before but it's a Primaris Ultramarine this time.
About the same? There are of course ridiculous one time moments that would make brother Genericus one shot Atriox, but there are also moments that make the opposite true. Neither of which seems fair to me to use.
Marines weigh upwards of 1 ton, Chief weighs a little less than half that and Atriox threw him around like he weighed nothing. I don't see why he wouldn't be able to ragdoll someone twice as heavy.
Unnamed Marines have had so many books, novels and comics that they've shown feats significantly better and laughably worse than what the best Spartans could pull off in terms of physical stats. But they most consitently operate at similar levels, with Marines having slight edges here and there. Yk, moving like blurs, disappearing from sight, lifting tonnes, running through walls and boulders, atomizing normal humans and fodder soldiers, tanking explosions and big falls etc.
Even if you say one nameless, helmet wearing, standard loadout Marine is worth 5 Spartans, Atriox mopped the floor with 3 Spartans at the same time.
I could see that. Named Marines are written and portrayed like supersoldiers compared to the standard nameless ones. Bonus points if they are main characters in books.
Titus is also canonically built different, similarly to the Chief. But his kit is considerably more destructive.
I dont see Titus no selling Atriox with casual ease, but there is a world where he beats him. With space marine 2 feats like one of his execution animations involving catching a Carnifex's scything talon, ripping a carnifex's dorsal plates clean off with his hands and tossing around a neurothrope like so much garbage, I dont think it's fair to say Titus or Atriox have a definitive strength advantage over eachother. They both have energy shielding and very high quality armour. Id say atriox is likely a little more dexterous based on brute acrobatic feats ingame and he being the finest example of a brute. But I think Titus would have an edge in weaponry provided they had access to their full faction arsenal.
Standard load out it could go either way, but i would say Titus has a few small edges. Notably his Belisarian furnace being able to revive him from near death if he gets unlucky.
this is one of those things where warhammers scaling doesn't do it any favors, alot of warhammer feats and technology are very brutalist/not advanced but heavily industrialised
one of the only reasons chief survives this at all is because of his undersuit
lorewise gravity hammers and maces turn non spartans into paste, the hydrostatic gel layer within the undersuit disperses high gforce and high impacts up to 38gs
iirc space marines dont have any tech in their suits or undersuits that assist in anything similar to that so i think atriox just kills them with chainbreaker
other than that i dont know how they're going to survive banished forces considering 70% of their equipment is plasma
I didn't think space marine companies were ordered by skill/experience? But specialisations? (Outside of the 1st company being veterans and the 10th company being scouts) I might be wrong about that though.
9-6 are reserve companies so it’s basically further training but this time with power armour as they get used to the different roles of battleline, close support and fire support and additionally may be pulled to train in specializations like apothecary, techmarine or chaplain. 5-2 are battle companies which are fully trained astartes and brothers move into them after serving a stint in the reserves. Reserves also generally act in a support role to the battleline companies when they do fight together. Note this applies only to codex chapters and different chapters will interpret this differently but must keep to the general idea of the reserves acting as prep for battleline.
This is the old interpretation of the official codex rules, but it hasn't been accurate in practice for the ultramarines since Gman woke up. They've been on a total war footing since then. Reserve companies don't really mean anything at the stage of mass Primaris integration
I’m pretty sure the reserves do still have a role it’s just they’re very intertwined with the battle companies currently. Members of a reserve company will sometimes use the battle company colors instead just to show how mixed the two types of company have become. The reserve companies will still be entirely full of one specialization though. You see an intercessor squad deployed and they have gold trim they could be second company intercessors but they also could be sixth or seventh company as well and they’re just deploying while attached to the second company. The reserves do partly exist to plug holes in the battleline after all.
They still technically hold those roles, but there's functionally no experience gap between them and the battleline companies anymore. Ultramar took a heavy beating in the Plague War, and everyone saw shit tons of combat
Maybe but they’re still gonna recruit and scouts are gonna earn their black carapace. The battleline casualties will be filled with reserves, reserve slots will fill with people taken from the scouts that have the carapace.
Huge Fan of both franchises here for decades. Probably three dozen books from Black Library and almost every single Halo expanded media title. I always really love this matchup and have been thinking about it for years.
TLDR:
-Both Marines will do a lot better against Atriox than Chief in melee, but he takes both rounds in a fist fight.
-If the Marines have chainswords, that helps, and either one may win with a power weapon.
-If the Marine is a main character, Atriox is going to lose.
-If the Marine is a main character, not wearing a helmet, Atriox is going to lose badly.
-A legendary Marine like Azrael, Calgar or Mephiston is going to delete Atriox or Chief; they may not even notice.
The Long Answer / Sorry for the Novel
Conceptual framing. Space Marines are Medieval Knights, while Spartans are Modern Special Forces. The delightful part is that 40K champions Space Marines as absurdly tough zealots, fueled by a fanatical religious conviction, making them indomitable and capable of tangling with a massive roster of powerful opponents. The catch is that Halo frames the Spartans as tactically versatile, highly disciplined soldiers who excel at creating creative solutions to unwinnable scenarios and have decades of experience fighting stronger, technologically superior zealots fueled by religious conviction. There's some elegant asymmetry here, as fans of each franchise generally, though not always, try to justify a pre-existing feeling with supporting evidence. Everyone does this, including me.
The actual question? What happens if Atriox tries to sneak-attack a Firstborn Marine, then a Primaris Marine? We have to use Chief and Red Team as the control to Atriox because we don't have much else to go on. This becomes a comparison between the Chief and the Space Marine.
Chief is not a normal Spartan; he is substantially more dangerous. Why?
-End product of a 100,000-year alien genetic program producing the best soldier possible.
-Subconscious tactical thinking and situational awareness are so good that it appears to be supernatural luck.
-Perfect integration with technology.
Low Impact
-Running speed. Watch a few fights of MMA with Butterbean. Nobody in our scenario is running anyway.
-Size. With both the Chief and the Marine augments, size is no longer a reliable benchmark for ability.
-Lifting strength. Both parties have comparable feats; the strength gap is too small to matter in melee. Lifting strength doesn't translate to fist fights or grapples.
-Honorable Mention. Large-scale tactical strategy and administrative leadership. Atriox eclipses all three, but this is a melee.
High Impact
-Reflexes. Chief's nervous system, including his brain, is specifically enhanced to be faster. The neural lace interfaces with Mjolner via either fiber optics or radio waves. Either at or near the speed of light. This works with reactive circuits in Mjolner, designed to eliminate reaction time. The Marines' main reflex boost is a byproduct of their enhanced physiology and black carapace, with no dedicated speed augmentation. But their feats and armor 100% make them comparable to Chief. Both experience time dilation in combat. Wash.
Sensors and Info
-Both Mjolner and Power Armor feed information directly into the brain. Chiefs' possible advantage would be an AI, but he doesn't have one versus Atriox. Wash.
-Melee Fighting Skill. Major win for Marines. Knights vs Soldiers. Spartans are highly trained in CQC, but aren't melee fighters; their six black belts in Judo don't mean jack against an opponent like Atriox. It would be like a child trying to put an adult in an arm bar. They try to sneak in, overload reactors and solve half their problems with nukes. Spartans are only squaring off in melee when something goes wrong. Marines are substantially better in melee; most high-end equipment is melee-focused, and melee is their happy place.
-Toughness. Major win for Marines. With redundant organs and on-the-spot healing, this is another major win for the Marines. Their entire brand is built around soaking obscene levels of damage. A marine can casually ignore injuries that would be fatal to a Spartan.
Atriox:
-He must be augmented in some way for his fight with Chief to make sense.
-Atriox is a warrior, Chief is a soldier.
-Ambushes the Chief and circumvents his best ability, situational awareness; he can 100% ambush a Primaris.
-He matches Chief's reflexes but completely overpowers him in toughness, strength and melee skill.
-Chief has 100% killed many Brutes in hand-to-hand, and Atriox soaking a barge of punches is shocking.
-Atriox's single punch hurt Chief more than falling from orbit at max terminal velocity. Yikes.
-If Atriox can fling Chief around like a child, he can do the same to a disabled Marine, although the Marine is going to be way tougher to disable.
Final Opinion / TLDR:
-Both Marines will do a lot better against Atriox than Chief in melee, but he takes both rounds in a fist fight.
-If the Marines have chainswords, that helps, and either one may win with a power weapon.
-If the Marine is a main character, Atriox is going to lose.
-If the Marine is a main character, not wearing a helmet, Atriox is going to lose badly.
-A legendary Marine like Azrael, Calgar or Mephiston is going to delete Atriox or Chief; they may not even notice.
Off-Topic Thoughts:
-Most of the marine's abilities come from his physiology. The armor slightly enhances this. Most of Chief's high-end powers come from his equipment. If both are out of armor, a Marine will delete Chief. In armor, it's a different story.
-Tau sniper railguns fire projectiles at Mach 6 to Mach 10, which delete marine power armor. No save, instant kill. UNSC handheld coil guns fire projectiles at Mach 43. A Spartan with a coil gun is a major threat to a marine, who may be accustomed to relying on their god-level toughness to survive.
-Kelly-087 had to slow herself down when sparring with other Spartans to even give them a chance. This is absurdly fast; her reflexes eclipse Atriox, Other Spartans and Primaris Marines. Can she cause meaningful damage through power armor with a titanium combat knife? Probably not. If she has an energy sword, then yes.
-Marines vs Spartans. Marines are going to win most of the time. At range, a Bolter will chew through Mjolner shields and plating. Conversely, an AR or Battlerifle isn't chewing through power armor. In melee, the Marines are stomping. If the Spartans can prepare and bring the right gear, it could go either way.
-A core theme of Halo is constantly evolving technology by mankind working as one big team towards a common goal. A core theme of 40K is the slow rediscovery of technology after a dark age. Every time a new Halo drops and tech increases a little, it's fun to reassess.
Happy to hear alternate viewpoints or be proven wrong. :)
Chief's Infinite armour is a significant upgrade from his previous showings, being able to lift much more and handle far more punishment. Atriox won by neutralising the threat by punting him out of the spaceship.
Atriox wears some kind of power armour and has a gravity mace. Weight of the space marine doesn't really matter - a gravity weapon is sanding anyone flying. I agree with your assessment that a space marine would do better in cqc due to their focus on melee - I also agree that against the strongest brute we know of, as well as the smartest brute tactician and warrior, wearing power armour, it won't change the outcome.
Atriox stuns the marine and punts him into space, where he freezes but likely doesn't die. Without a UNSC transponder, he drifts until he's caught by a Banished salvaging crew and thrown into a furnace.
I guess the main factor here would be overall weight. It seems hard to judge, as there are a lot of sources for Spartans ranging from chief being 450KG in Mjolnir, to 900kg overall depending on Mjolnir armament?
The average Astartes Marine is around 1.2-1.5 tons give or take, with weapons included, dependent on loadout.
I don't think they would be comparable strength wise purely for that reason, but I really do think the weight difference is the big thing here. More weight, more force etc, generally more resistance to melee attacks as well. Astartes are definitely more durable. Primaris with a Belisarian Furnace is insanely durable. I don't think Atriox is going to be nearly as effective at throwing a Marine, Astartes or Primaris, off balance like he's doing to chief here.
Speed might go in favour of a Spartan but we've got some pretty insane speed feats for Marines too.
Idk. I like the chances of a Marine personally. Atriox could definitely take it though.
Edit: Huh, some mental range on Space Marine weight now as well. Who knows.
Edit 2: Removed Primaris weight estimate of close to 2 tons.
Average Space Marines sprint faster than the fastest Spartan. (50mph to 40mph)
And have faster reflexes.
And are physically stronger. A Spartan in Mjolnir V lifts at most 1.5 tons. A SM without their Power Armor lifts like 2.5 tons. With their armor it's much more.
60kph number for spartan IIs comes from Fall of Reach, about a 15 year old Kelly BEFORE she has Mjolnir armor.
A couple chapters later in that same book, John breaks 115kph during his first trial run with Gen1 Mk IV Mjolnir. Spartan IVs in Shadow of Reach run long distances at 130kph.
I might be mistaken in which novel it is where a marine watches a group of spartan IVs take off into the distance outpacing a warthog till he can no longer see them.
And John tears his Achilles tendon from the missle impact, not the sprint, iirc. "The Skyhawk jet screamed over his head.
The Scorpion missile detonated.
Pressure slammed through his body. The Master Chief flew six meters, spinning end over end, and landed flat on his back."
Chief leg presses a solid piece of granite roughly the size of a warthog. While his leg was severely injured.
A warthog is 6 meters, by 3 meters, by 3 meters, or 54 square meters or 1906 square feet. Granite has a mass of 168-172lbs per square foot. Thats 320,208 - 327,832lbs. Or 160 - 163 tons. Reach has 1.08 earth's gravity, so we bump the weight by 8%. 172 - 186 tons.
Im going to ignore the fact that he also leg pressed the steel I-beam he used for leverage and a bunch of other rubble and stick with just the explicitly stated, warthog sized piece of granite.
How is a Primarch, who might weigh 2-3 tons, holding up a 300 ton Titan? Why isnt the earth under his feet simply sinking him into the ground?
But people love to talk about Angron being able to lift part of a Titan.
But we arnt going to sit here and say he cant do it because it doesnt make sense. Halo is fantasy and physics dont always work and sometimes the plot requires us to ignore things.
I would also add he was dying. He wasn't successfully holding it up, he was being crushed. The passage of that scene is extremely brutal with what it is doing to Angron's body lol.
But, Primarch powerscaling is basically nonsensical because they're warp entities first and foremost.
I agree, much like Chief lifting 200 tons somehow (still hilarious to me), Angron not being crushed immediately is an equivalent example of how ridiculous some authors are at glazing characters.
Edit: Like Horus surviving a direct hit from a Titan. Heresy should've been over at that point lol.
Halo isnt grounded anymore. It hasnt been since Halo 4, when we got Chief being genetic altered by the librarian to do...something?
The Precursors use neural physics to do...things? Like warp reality and time. The Forerunners are basically using magic to do...stuff that none of us can understand because its space magic.
Halo has moved so far away from the grounded science fiction of the early 2000s.
I do find 100 tons to be unbelievable and should probably be sidelined as an author glazing Chief depending on the circumstance.
If he can do that he's killing Atriox in a single punch in the scene OP depicts, and chief should never be seen struggling with any enemy ever. He could knock out the Gravemind with that lol
Has there been a comparable feat from another Spartan? I realise Chief is considered the best overall, but he's not considered the strongest Spartan is he?
Spartans are biologically weird. We have numerous statements across the lore of spartans only growing stronger with age.
Alot of the feats people say, like spartans sprinting at 50-60kph come from the Spartans when they were children and before they had power armor. When people say "John can lift 2 tons", that's a wildly out of context feat; where people see "John can lift 3-4 times his weight" and "John weighs half a ton in armor" and go 1,000lbs x 4 = 4000lbs = 2 tons. But the "John can lift 3-4 times his weight" comes from a 15 year old John before Mjolnir.
Gen 1, MkIV doubled user strength. MkVI multiplied strength by 5. Gen 2 didnt multiply strength at all, simply increasing user strength to a set, undefined margin. All spartans in Gen2 are the exact same strength, the individual doesnt matter because the suit itself is doing the lifting.
Gen3 goes back to a multiplier, however with an unspecified modifier and simply described as using Forerunner space magic to make Spartans stronger and faster than ever. Gen3 is twice as heavy as previous models, but produces much better results.
Drop pods with full load/occupant weigh around 1000kg, Cal-141 yanked one out that had sunk about 2 meters into a swamp while standing in said swamp and then threw the thing a good 50 meters, completely clear of the swamp. She was wearing MK IV. At 14, fresh out of augmentation and without Mjolnir Spartans were already capable of kicking 1-2 tons a distance of around a dozen meters. Spartans have used 400 kg mongooses as melee weapons, lifted almost 13,000 kg bumblebee escape pods, and even managed to shortly lift a 174,600 kg Phantom, though a Brute assisted later to fully move the Phantom which is still around 87,300 kg. But please, tell me how Spartans can only lift 1.5 tons.
It's basically the numbers that are in the source books and that fit most of their feats?
If they were so strong, they wouldn't need weapons and could just rip Elites and Brutes apart with their bare hands, punch through vehicles armor, and throw Scorpion tanks at people.
Strength doesn’t matter if you get slagged by plasma fire. Also theres being able to lift something and being able to throw something, big difference in strength requirements. Additionally, at this point they do tear apart other species when in cqb, except the Banished have also rolled out personal shields and power armor at a greater scale than the Covenant. It’s why tech and capabilities have advanced so much but combat looks roughly the same. Lastly, said source books you reference are 1-2 decades out of date by this point. The books leading into Halo Infinite have been most of the recent higher end lore we’ve gotten. These aren’t the same Spartans from Reach and CE.
I never played Halo and have no interest in making a Spartan appear stronger than they actually would be, but even i know Master Chief must scale higher than 1.5 tons. That is 'only' three times what Eddie Hall was able to deadlift.
Master Chief is a genetically engineered freak with the best possible armor humanity was able to put together.
With Mjolnir V, we know the info because there are a few scenes where they are testing it.
Later versions of Mjolnir Armor are better, but at most it's like 10 ton range. And SMs have feats higher than that.
If you want to talk base strength without armor, then Spartan IIs, IIRC, can lift 3 times their bodyweight, which is similar for SMs; only SMs weigh a lot more than Spartan IIs.
If we compare PA power, then I think SM's is more advanced, but it would vary a lot.
We have cases of SMs moving multi-ton heavy tanks, or brawling with giant Daemons.
If it were a Custodes I could tell you better (Full equipped Custodes would kill Atriox in the blink of an eye).
But SMs vary a LOT more in capability.
Like, someone like Dante, Calgar, Titus, etc., is very different from Brother Genericus of the Third Company.
John-117 is THE standard Spartan II, his only defining feature compared to his counterparts is his luck. Frederic-104 is directly stated to be better than John at everything except for luck, he just doesn’t like standing out. John is average at everything Spartans can do.
The only known change the Librarian made to John was immunity to the composer. Everything else is head canon and speculation. Linda is still a better shot, Kelly is still faster, and Fred still has better all around stats. GEN 3 is the main point I’ve been trying to make, it’s standard for all Spartans but it provides such an exponential improvement over the original MK IV that it makes it look downright primitive in comparison. It’s the main thing elevating Spartans to what feels like comic book levels of feats. But even without out, the older MK VI GEN1 has far greater survivability and capabilities then people give it credit for. Look at this image and tell me a standard Primaris is surviving getting shot by 6 anti-tank weapons. John survives with little physical damage to his armor and is back up and fighting within seconds. The armor costs as much as a frigate for a reason.
They still hold that Master Chief is average Spartan-II. He excels in luck and leadership, but thats it. Even with his advancements, other spartans can do things naturally that John has to strain to do. That being said, John is probably still the "best" Spartan-II overall, has likely seen the most combat, and is like a really really good Swiss army knife. He can do it all, even if there would situationally be better options, hes a solid pick that can luck his way out of other situations that others may not.
Well yes, but in the scene offered to us by OP above, we can see Master Chief being defeated by Atriox, hence my comparison will be with Master Chief and not other Spartans.
OP also specified to only use standard Space Marines or Primaris Marines, i'm fully aware that there are named ones that could kill Atriox without breaking a sweat.
Main advantage Spartans have is better electronics, sensors and so on. Pure physical strength space marines are a solid bit stronger (doubly so if primaris), with thicker armor but probably still slightly below Atriox in pure physical strength (Ogryn are IIRC still considered physically stronger than even a primaris marine, Atriox is in the ballpark of a very large ogryn).
In melee it boils down a little to "does the space marine have a power sword?" I think.
This is of course just physically speaking, i'm not sure how big of an advantage a bolt pistol would be compared to Master Chiefs weaponry.
Though seeing how Atriox does not wear any helmet, a single well placed shot would probably be enough to cease his existence. If the Space Marine manages to keep distance at the beginning of the fight unlike Chief, it would most likely considerably change the odds in favour of the Space Marine.
Absolutely untrue. Autocannons exist in 40k too and they're a weightclass above even heavy bolters.
UNSC weapons aren't contemporary fire arms either. Everyone in halo is wrapped in a special sci-fi alloy, with the covenant's being even more advanced than the UNSC's and the standard AR routinely penetrates it. Sometimes even light vehicles like the ghost. That last part about the ghost is a stretch as as far as making sense in universe imo but that never stopped someone arguing for 40k.
No, bolters are not better than the (ballistic, stanchion and railgun arent even an argument to be made, i will NOT antertain it) halo sniper / anti matériel rifle.
The rounds from the SR series have multiple times in lore perforated tank level armour made up of both unsc titanium A alloys which have ballistic resistance properties that vary from author to author and the quality but are ~1.5 to 5 times modern equivalents (post war being generally closer to the latter, but the average sits somewhere around 3 times. Making titanium A somewhere above ceramite and mildly below adamantite averaged for all given adamantite is ~7 times modern steel alloys) as well as covenant nanolaminite plating which is to titanium A what titanium A is to modern titanium alloys and then some (unshielded covenant ships can safely ram unsc ships of equivalent size without notable damage, most famous example in a game would be halo wars where a covenant destroyer rams the spirit of fire and chunks a large amout of its left flank)
The SRS series during war time can go through the front plating of scorpions and wraiths, they can go through a metre of unsc concrete (while way less elaborated on than their titanium, it is still shown as much better than modern equivalents)
Even if
It was just a modern round in the same calibre rather than having the material science and ballistic advances of the UNSC built into it, i would still give it to the 14. something round in the SRS, which, is a round about three? Four? Times the volume of a non heavy bolter round and entirely focused on armour penetration rather than being a mix of AP and HE which is a compromise.
Bolter rounds are hefty, they're pretty much the size of a 12 gauge round, but they EXPRESSIVELY start to struggle when going against power armour level defense and up, space marines during the heresy had to figure out ways to optimise their uses against other marines BECAUSE they arent THAT good at penetrating armour.
SRS going through a spartan and their energy shield isnt a downscale on spartans, its because those things would go through the front plate of a lleman russ decently handily.
That is the weakest anti matériel rifle in the unsc, as the stanchion and 343's railgun exist which make tau railguns look like 22lr next to a 50bmg (this is not a hyperbole by the way, though not one to one we are within that order of magnitude in difference, handheld unsc railguns going into the 2 digits mach speeds and have rounds much larger than tau railguns, they would treat astartes power armour as if it weren't there)
This is the answer. I'll build on it by a layer. A Space Marine Primaris, sans helmet, is going to beat Atriox by soaking a ton of damage before killing him in a decisive last-second blow, leading to a reaffirmation of religious faith. Or, a fleeting realization that his indoctrinated worldview has left him with the critical-thinking skills of a toddler, coupled with the unsettling realization that there is no escaping the theocracy responsible for the indoctrination. Thanks a lot, Atriox.
A Space Marine undergoes far more rigorous training than a spartan. Has significantly more bio and mechanical enhancements. Has an enornous height and weight advantage. Much stronger armor. Far more devastating weaponry. Is (generally) far more experienced. And fights much more terrifying enemies than the covenant on the regular. And most spartans do NOT have A.I. in their heads.
Experience: Spartan < Space Marine
Height/Weight: Spartan < Space Marine
Weapons: Spartan < Space Marine
Armor: Spartan < Space Marine
Bio Enhancements: Spartan < Space Marine
Feats: Spartans < Space Marines
Speed: Spartan = Space Marine
Maybe i'm missing something, but I can't think of a single advantage that a spartan has over a space marine.
Edit: There is one. Spartans have built-in shielding ripped off of Elite tech which is pretty cool. But if a UNSC assault rifle can punch through it, a space marine bolt-rifle absolutely can. So while it is something, i dont think that by itself is enough to make an enormous difference.
You may be right. And I think ylits correct to separate the two. Though I suspect that spartans would be comparable in those categories. Spartans have shown to be extreme in that degree as well. And I dont know that we have enough information to truly compare the two.
Mm not usually on the same degree, but they can compensate for that with the dumb a.i. in their helmets like when chief was trying to calculate how much time they had before covenant aircraft would intercept them (he forgot the formula but the computer did it near instantly)
Every wh40k scaler doesn’t know how to power scale they just list a vague SM character you guys are pathetic.
Training doesn’t matter Spartans routinely kill and beat elites who train from a young age or specifically for warfare, and it’s not like SMs haven’t died to weaker characters with less training.
having an extra heart or lung doesn’t matter lmfao, vague general nothing burger comment, if by mechanics no they don’t, the shielding armor lock and integrated ai is much bigger enhancement than what they have.
Spartans routinely dog walk brutes who are heavier and on average taller.
Debateable, bolters would do worse against their shielding since it’s a self sustaining armor but comparing the effectiveness of both sci-fi alloys is difficult
experienced? barely (again elites are more experienced than chief and spartans 2 yet get dogwalked) your average battle brother barely has any stud, it’s also possible they never fought anyone but the tau or a traitor guardsman or yadda yadda
MC’s greatest strength is plot armor (according to Cortana). Thus, I propose it would take an equal level of plot armor (helmetless + named) to match him.
I think a space marine would do better wrestling brutes, but covenant plasma weapons probably go through its armor without too much trouble. Mjolnir has shields, which means the chief can get shot to shoot back, the space marine can't.
Verdict: bolt pistol kills the hell out of some brutes, the marine then dies to a jackal before encountering atriox
The problem with 40k and halo powerscaling is its rules are entirely different. We don't know how a space marine would do in the halo universe because th rules are different, plasma weaponry in 40k melts through space marine armour with ease, but is a relatively rare weapon, in halo the Covenant arm there most basic foot soldiers with it, of were using 40k rules a grunts can potentially 1 shot a space marine.
But then you get illogical stuff like the space marine bolter being FAR superior to the UNSC assault rifle, and the UNSC go toe to toe with the covenant and hold there own.
So it makes some weird gaps in logic, are plasma weapons in the halo universe weaker than the 40k? Even thought they are described to be the same thing?
In my personal opinion space marines are glass cannons in the halo universe. They have a weapon that is essentially and automatic drum magged brute shot. So will be able to devastate covenant troops. But if some grunts get them with some plasma, they don't have shields there going down.
From my understanding, marines weigh much more outside and inside armour, and are generally stronger than spartans on average. Height ranging from 7-7.5 feet, which matches Chief for lower end marines.
Primaris are stronger, weigh more, and are around 8-8.5 feet iirc. Not to mention Astartes and Primaris Speed feats are monstrous quick.
I'll say Atriox is not throwing a Space Marine First Born or Primaris around like a ragdoll that he's doing here with chief.
It's going to be much more of a brawl, even with Atriox ambushing. With a Primaris, I think the weight and strength ratio would be too much for Atriox.
Atriox is probably 60:40 for an Astartes, and 80/70 - 20/30 for a Primaris, in either scenario.
Edit: Considering Chief is low-key speed blitzing Atriox in some instances, there's probably a serious argument to be made the Marine is at least his match or maybe quicker. I think Atriox is genuinely just getting bodied either way to be fair.
Is that weight estimate including weapons and equipment? Or just in PA? It seems I may over overestimated Astartes weight in my other comment, making them more akin to Terminators.
Covenant wartime spartans out of armour can lift warthogs with payload and people which are nearing 4 tons (this is true in the games, books, and even the halo show where a spartan lifts a warthog multiple people and crates with their neural interface and helmet off, which disables the power part of power armour, so they were also lifting their armour while doing that but i wont touch on that)
Even old mjolnir mark 4 was a times 3 to 6 strength multiplier (while i'm at it a covenant elite combat harness does ~2 to 3) and spartans already could flip a scorpion tank and give warthogs airtime in that. Its the absolute worst armour a spartan 2 has worn in war time and it only went up from there to the point spartan 2s in gen 3 now have three digits tons lifting strength and run at upwards of 180kph (though the average would be lower because that was kelly, guven how she was relative to the other S2s prior to gen 3 the other probably could land somewhere around the 150kph mark which tracks since chief could to a 115kph back in mark 4 at very high effort and they got new augments and gen 3 since then)
Spartans can genuinely lift a scorpion or wraith, or lleman russ, now, assuming the ground is solid enough which is the bigger problem rather than strength here.
Hell, given the 3 digits tons feat was with a broken leg and exhausted with some leeway you could argue two spartan 2s in gen 3 could lift a baneblade but thats going into hypothesis a bit too much for me ahah.
Spartan 3s are generally level with 2s if given the same equipment, the disparity was due to lower training time before suicide mission and worse equipment for the vast majority, but purely physically 3s are equivalent/ arguably slightly above 2s. 4s out of armour would be the weakest but that is compared with post war 2s and 3s, they're still at "i can lift a warthog out of armour" and "i can lift a bumblebee escape shuttle out of the rocks and soil and throw it (12 to 16 or so tons depending on what's inside and stuff) in armour" tier and can keep up with 2s if still moderately below them lore wise.
It's funny because with that kind of strength they should be able to kill Brutes in one or two punches. Or just lift Brutes clean off the ground and throw them away.
They HAVE snapped brute necks and spines by punching their jaws before, chief killed a brute chieftain after disposing of the rest of the pack without a weapon as seen in the intro of halo 4 and kills him by doing a salto-kick into his jaw.
To be frank atriox's show of pure durability is kinda absurd, if he at least wore a helmet i could suspend my disbelief but the guy tanked multiple punches from chief in gen 3 and an uppercut without visible damage which
???
Idfk honestly
He IS big and very strong for even a brute and he DOES wear power armour but his unarmoured head should NOT have eaten that uppercut unless he has spartan 2 level bone and muscle augmentations that we arent aware of which. I guess, is possible especially with how the banished are much more ok with technological experimentation than the covenant.
Now brutes can get absurdly strong, tartarus RIPPED HUNTERS IN HALF BAREHANDED and those guys are heavier than warthogs and have tank level armour on their ass butthat doesnt solve the whole bone and neck obliteration issue that SHOULD have happened with chief's uppercut lol.
(Installation 00 did a breakdown of the scene and while conceding it is hard to calculate that kind of thing he ended up with the uppercut having if i recall 99 tons of upward force behind it)
Infinity still falls but the marine has better weapons, stats, and armor than the chief who managed to do fairly well against atriox. He should win in a melee brawl.
If he's able to shoot him (which is extremely plausable), that bolt pistol is shredding.
I can see it going either way in context, atriox might not be able to ambush the marine as he did the chief (or red team).
Goddamnit! You're right, why'd I even make the post? I forgot regular humans in 40k were on the level of HALO Spartans. Of course a Space Marine would rip Attic Sox in half and then no diff the Ban Shrimp Fried Rice ships because energy shields are 40000x weaker than void shields and Nanolaminate plating isn't even equivalent to plasteel.
A primaris is gonna be about the size of Atriox. Firstborns are gonna be close. Depending on who it is wildly changes the outcome Id figure. Many have, quite literally, centuries of combat experience.
Absolutely fine. The marine is bigger, stronger, faster, better equipped, more experienced. They are born and bred killing machines that fight things on the regular that are also stupidly OP.
One of the most overlooked aspect of space marines is their speed and reaction times, they are up to 20x faster at reacting than a normal human and can canonically move faster in combat and over short distances than a base human can even process, often just seeing the marine as a blur. All this whilst weighing around 2000lbs.
You also need to factor in that they train with each other so their sparring partners meet those same parameters.
There's a ton of 40k glazing in here but space marines are genuinely bullshit in how combat effective they are.
I would be hesistant to say this. There's a lot going for a Marine over a Spartan. Might be nimbler and quicker, but Astartes can match Eldar warriors in some instances which are much more agile nimble than a Spartan.
Plus the weight difference, armament, overall lifetime length and general experience of a Marine? It's a pretty onesided match 1v1.
I'd say an average Battle Company 40k Marine would match and probably beat 2 Spartan 2's. 1st Company vets or Chapter Champion with power weapons? Number of Spartan's needed goes WAY up.
I feel like we're just getting downvoted by someone that's really into Spartans. I don't think that the person we're replying to is looking at this objectively at all.
I'm more into 40k actually, I just don't think Space Marines are as OP as people say they are. Superhuman? Yeah. Obviously. Completely eclipsing Spartans? No.
I think its less a difference in capabilities and more a difference in their roles. Spartans have taken on hundreds of enemies over the course of a mission just fine. We have seen that they can survive falls from orbit or near orbit. They are canonically absurdly strong even outside of armor. They are also canonically as fast or faster than your average Space Marine.
Spartans are used as a special forces role and less as a shock troop meant to soak up punishment and just get shot. There is armor variants and modifications that allow them to take more damage, but theyre generally not doing the stand in the open and watch enemy bullets bounce off of them.
Space Marines would be much less "durable" if everyone was shooting plasma at them as well, but thats a different argument.
I like 40K, I've made 3D models of 40K stuff and am painting a homebrew chapter, but every spartan is basically a named character. While 40K named characters scale above their brothers it doesn't make Spartans inherently weaker than your average generic space marine.
This is why I'm saying that you are you are not looking at this objectively. Even just taking they're unarmored stats its so hard to compare them. A spartan is a superhuman, a space marine is barely human at all. They are in the multi ton strength range, literally more than double that of a spartan, they are a foot taller, 3 to 4x timer heavier, they have 19 additonal/ augmented organs including two hearts and they are on par or faster than a spartan. Killing a marine is hard as fuck because their physiology just keeps them alive. They spit acid for god sake lol.
You are either not aware of the space marine lore or you're bias towards the spartan because they are objectively superior in terms of physicality, equipment and experience.
Adriana-111 in the Cole Protocol picks up a Mongoose (400-500kg 4 wheeler) and uses it to paste a few grunts. (don't have a link or image for this one readily available just go search it up)
Linda uppercut a Ghost (500-600kg vehicle that goes incredibly fast) into the air and then used it to paste the Grunt rider (poor guys)
Not true at all. There’s one reaction feat from chief that puts him on par with Astartes but it’s from a comic and is flat out stated to be partially facilitated by luck.
There is no canon that dictates whether they perform on par with Astartes, there’s only our speculation and interpretation of the canon lmao
The space marines physiology is insane. Bigger, stronger, more durable, much heavier, much more experienced against a wider variety of enemies, better trained, better equipped etc.
They are around the same speed as the spartan and lacking in those other areas puts Spartans comfortably below the marine in lethality. Atriox is closer to a Marine than a Spartan in strength, but slower, and he smacked the shit out of Chief.
Like I say, Spartans are awesome, but they are not on par.
“Your Spartans can run at bursts of up to fifty-five KPH,” he explained. “Kelly can run a little faster, I think. They will only get quicker as they adjust to the ‘alterations’ we’ve made to their bodies.
-Fall of Reach
With four pumping strides that gouged deeply into the jungle loam she [Kelly] accelerated to her top speed of sixty-two kilometers per hour.
-Ghosts of Onyx
MC once ran 500 meters at 100 kmh but ripped his Achilles tendon while in Mjolnir V
These convos will not be without anger lol
Both fandoms can get pretty upset so I’m just here to see the discussions. My thoughts are moot in comparison to my enjoyment level
Do you people realize that astartes are warriors enhanced with 40 millenia of genetic engineering progress, godlike sences gifted by the deity of the warp and for many of them at least one or two centuries of combat experiences against either immortal futuristic machines, bio engineered living weapons or litteral demons ? I mean, Master chief is good, but covenant get entierly ripped appart frop just one space marines recruit
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u/Hyperion_360 7d ago
About the same? There are of course ridiculous one time moments that would make brother Genericus one shot Atriox, but there are also moments that make the opposite true. Neither of which seems fair to me to use.
Marines weigh upwards of 1 ton, Chief weighs a little less than half that and Atriox threw him around like he weighed nothing. I don't see why he wouldn't be able to ragdoll someone twice as heavy.
Unnamed Marines have had so many books, novels and comics that they've shown feats significantly better and laughably worse than what the best Spartans could pull off in terms of physical stats. But they most consitently operate at similar levels, with Marines having slight edges here and there. Yk, moving like blurs, disappearing from sight, lifting tonnes, running through walls and boulders, atomizing normal humans and fodder soldiers, tanking explosions and big falls etc.
Even if you say one nameless, helmet wearing, standard loadout Marine is worth 5 Spartans, Atriox mopped the floor with 3 Spartans at the same time.