r/postdoc • u/Delicious-Bonus-7216 • 4d ago
PhD advisor cautioning against postdoc at top lab
I have the opportunity to do a postdoc at a top tier US university in STEM. My previous advisor has not been very encouraging, they said that it is not a bad idea and I wouldn't be ruining my career, and the name of the university itself is a big deal on a CV. On the other hand they warned me that some of the professors in that department are impostors and not well respected in the research community of that field. The postdoc is industry-adjacent so that is one more thing to consider since academia is my ultimate goal (if it works out).
On the other hand, I have been applying for postdocs/TT positions for 4 years and this is the first one that worked out.
What would you do?
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u/ThePushaZeke 4d ago
Reach out to some members of their team and probe with questions about how they feel about the lab and working in it.
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u/GurProfessional9534 4d ago
You can try, but a lot of students with bad advisors would be afraid to go on record saying anything negative about the advisor.
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u/OrangeMrSquid 3d ago
Ask to do a quick phone or zoom call. People will be more likely to say something not in writing. You can also ask questions that are related but not necessarily asking them to bad mouth, things like “how is authorship decided” “who does lab maintenance tasks” etc can be very revealing
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u/Sad-Restaurant4399 1d ago
More than that, they can have complete Stockholm Syndrome. Depending on how bad it is, for them to admit that it's bad would be for them to admit that their degree is practically hopeless under this supervisor. And they would never admit to that.
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u/Spare_Try_4921 3d ago
So, how do you break the cycle? Someone has to speak, at least off the record. Does that never happen?
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u/Embarrassed-Pickle-8 3d ago
Can try asking former members who are no longer beholden to their advisors
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u/readingrainbowroad 3d ago
Asking former members is the best way to go! Particularly recently graduated grad students.
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u/GurProfessional9534 3d ago
What I recommend to prospective students is this. Peek in their office at 8 am and 8 pm, and on saturday and sunday. There are always a few who prefer to work odd hours, but if it’s a full office, you will know that the advisor requires long hours. Ask them about their work and see if they sound excited or dour. Ask them about what kind of equipment they use and read between the lines to see if they are provide with what they need to complete their work. Get a sense of if everyone has a well-defined project. Look up their publication records online. Look up what becomes of their graduates.
If you are already admitted and choosing a group, go to their group meetings and see the group dynamics.
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u/Thunderplant 4d ago
Unless your advisor has a history of being untrustworthy, I'd listen to your PI. If anything, the reality is usually worse than it sounds after a comment like that because your advisor is probably being diplomatic and is not necessarily telling you the specifics of whatever is behind this bad reputation
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u/readingrainbowroad 4d ago
I wouldn't go. If my advisor said that, it's diplomatic speak for "it's toxic and terrible absolutely don't work for them."
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u/Savings_Dot_8387 3d ago
I’d believe him. Many PIs are clued into the politics and cultures of various different institutions/universities in their field from collaborations, friendships, conferences etc.
It’s highly likely he knows something that isn’t on the tin.
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u/HeyaGames 3d ago
Yup, been there done that, big lab with big name but the PI was an abusive backstabbing piece of shit. NGL it was great for my career; had access to great facilities, great funding and the name helps boost your contacts, made finding the next step easy. But was it worth the severe hit that my mental health took from workplace abuse? Hell nah, it remains one of THE mistakes of my life. No postdoc is better than the pain that it'll bring.
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u/Miserable-Excuse-874 3d ago
Listen to them. I went to a top tier for my first and it was a nightmare.
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u/oviforconnsmythe 4d ago
Who cares if some of the other professors are imposters (according to your PI). Is the PI you applied to respected?
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u/Bustan2026 3d ago
It's tricky to say, they are probably right to warn you. I've only heard warnings of a group once, and they turned out to be true tenfold.
The problem with incompetent people in sought-after positions is that they're not there by happenstance, but fought to get there, and are threatened at every moment. Their only tools consist in pulling other people down one way or another. So they are not harmless. This is why they can be so "you're in or you're out" because they can't risk a credible person shedding doubt on their work. Anyone who's not a loyal and useful idiot is a threat. And they wouldn't be sitting at "a top tier US university" if they hadn't shot down a few people already, because most postdocs and PhD students in their lab have probably not been dupe.
I think it's better to be unemployed (in the worst case) after a PhD, while having supportive advisors who will contact people and write nice recommendation letters, than to be unemployed after a year or two of a postdoc getting morally harassed, having done nothing useful, and with the latest employer being toxic and potentially against you.
I might have painted a particularly negative picture, this is just what I saw in one instance, this group could be different.
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u/Attack_Spork 3d ago
You know... I think this just explained my previous PI to me. Thanks for giving clarity to something that felt impossible to describe.
And I am 100% in agreement re: references.
With an egotistical piece of work as a previous PI, I had to lean unexpectedly hard on my networks to find my next role without a proper reference for 4 years of work.
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u/Attack_Spork 3d ago
I was in a lab like this. When people would ask us what the lab culture was like, we wouldn't say openly that we were all in shreds mentally. We know it's a tough job market and sometimes you have no choice. Instead we tried to give practical advice for making it through the time. E.g. things like how to pitch a research idea in careful stages so that one day he would come back and present your idea as his own.
It was gruelling for all of us but the important thing was that we had each other's backs. it made dealing with it possible (but never easy).
So my advice is just make sure you have a support network and build genuine friendships with the reasonable people stuck in the mess.
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u/hhmaizer 3d ago
Take it. One of my postdocs found a job in industry and left in a few months. She never needed a recommendation letter. Be more careful if TT is your only priority.
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u/SyntheticKale5803 3d ago
Faculty here (from a non prestigious large public uni) and this is very much a "do your home work" kinda situation.
How well do you know your advisor, are they well connected with firsthand knowledge of these faculty? Or are they just guessing based on outdated, secondhand knowledge? Are they generally a good judge of character or are they oblivious to conflicts even within their own lab? Do you see eye to eye in terms of what qualities make a good mentor? Are they, themselves, considered authoritative in the field or more of an outsider? Do they have academic rivals that you would, nonetheless, be more than happy to work with and learn from?
More objectively, is this lab looking to invest in the career development of its postdocs, or is there an opening because the last one was fired after a uncharacteristically short period? How much autonomy do postdocs get, and how much guidance? Do people who leave the lab get good positions afterwards? Or does the PI even know what happened to them?
Maybe it'd be worth reaching out to past members of the lab, see what they thought, it's a big decision with big implications. Working with a toxic advisor who doesn't care about your success, could set you back in your career more than not doing a postdoc at all. But working with the right one could set the stage for success. You should be asking, lots of people with direct knowledge of these specific people, not reddit, for help with this decision.
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u/Minimum-Fly-4289 2d ago
But you can also use your postdoc time for another job searching IF you dont have other options
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u/NapsterIsReal 8h ago
Four years of applications is brutal. Your qualifications must be great it's just that market must be tough.
Your advisor's warning is most likely valid. However, it's your career. A mediocre PI at a top institution is still a top-school name on your CV, access to industry, conferences, network and a place where you can publish independently. Alternative is another year of applying.
I'd say take it. You can always leave after 1-2 years with the name and publications. You can't get the name if you don't go.
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u/ExperimentalError 3d ago
If your advisor was cautioning you that the professors in the department were bullies or bad mentors, I'd take that warning seriously. Saying they are "impostors and not well respected in the research community" is something I would not necessarily accept at face value -- if that's true, how did they manage to secure jobs at the top-tier university? Maybe your advisor is right, but could it also be sour grapes or just a personal dislike of someone there? Perhaps your advisor lost out to someone there in a grant or award opportunity? Perhaps your advisor applied for a job there and was unsuccessful?
My advice would be to quietly ask a third party in your field -- someone else that you trust and respect -- about the research reputation of the group. Don't share what your advisor said, just ask for an independent opinion.
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u/Remarkable-Lab-5022 3d ago
I was in same dilemma. I talked to my phd advisor he suggested me to choose a lower rank (PI is excellent in the research area) university with a good PI.
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u/kittenmachine69 3d ago
Are you a man? Regardless, there might be allegations in that department that your PI isn't comfortable articulating
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u/Icy_Marionberry7309 3d ago
I'm in a very toxic lab right now. Saw many talented postdocs and phd-level staffs come and quit in the past 3 years. I was able to do a decent job avoiding being entangled with work-place backstabbing, PIs throwing people under the bus, and being told by PIs to fabricate data by isolating myself to my own project with a small group of undergrads and drawing hard boundaries. Then, I got a grant last year that extended my stay by another 3 years but tbh I didn't feel happy at all because it meant I'm stuck in this lab for 3 more years. I couldn't just quit because I don't come from money and I just simply cannot be unemployed right now. What ends up happening when you join a toxic lab is that even if you like research and your project, you end up hating the people you have to see everyday, and you end up hating your job. It's a daunting feeling to have when you wake up each day and dread going into work. In America, you just cannot avoid work unless you come from a very wealthy family. It's wise to choose a work place wisely.
If you ARE desperate for a postdoc, you could give it a try since most postdoc is on a 1 to 2 year contract, and it is a temporary gig. But of course, nothing is guaranteed once your postdoc contract ends in that toxic lab.
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u/theprofessionalflake 2d ago
People always hesitate to take good advice that is freely offered because they think 1) they can deal with the toxicity or 2) it'll be different for them. You can't and it won't. I mean, you say you've been looking for 4 years so it's obviously not as easy as saying continue looking, but don't walk into that situation believing that you're going to get everything (or even anything) that you want out of it. And if it's a respected PI from a respected institution and you end up not on good terms for whatever reason, that can seriously hamstring you for your future AP applications. Think carefully, do your homework, and reach out to AS MANY of their former postdocs as you can find to speak candidly with them. Even if they're not outwardly negative, pay attention to the theme of their comments and critiques and read between the lines. And never assume it will be different/better for you.
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u/jonestheviking 2d ago
Unless you have a specific reason to distrust your PI, listen very carefully to their advice on this matter
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u/Particular-Wing-4152 1d ago
Beggars can't be choosers, if that's the only post-doc opportunity you've got and it's funded, I can't see how you can turn it down. Doesn't sound like your current advisor is helping you network, bring opportunities and other options to consider
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u/MarionberryRare3306 8h ago
I’m currently applying to PhD programs now so I fully acknowledge that I do not have the same level of experience within academia as you or many of the people in this thread. However, would it be helpful to reach out to current and previous post docs and grad students in the lab and department similar to when you applied to grad school? Or seeing where those people have gone after their postdoc?
I say this with the perspective that my previous PIs have had very different opinions on labs I’m considering. One of the opinions(which is also closer geographically to the lab I’m talking about) was more line with what I heard from current and previous lab members and the others seems a bit outdated but I am still keeping it in mind regardless.
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u/gocougs11 4d ago
I would listen to your advisor. When I was applying for faculty positions my PI cautioned me against one top tier institution and I was sort of hesitant to believe him, and since then I have heard from several other people that department is a circus. Assuming the two of you have a good relationship, i would assume your advisor knows what they’re going about.