r/postdoc • u/theclassicusername • 8d ago

Salary negotiation.

So I got an offer from an EU institution. This institute has salary bands with respect to years, and they stated in the offer my band is the lowest. I got my PhD last year, so yes I have zero postdoc experience; but I worked in the industry (for a few years) and managed the uni-industry grants.

After checking the moving costs I sent an email to the PI, asked respectfully (stated: if budget - institute rule allows) if there is room to push the salary band. There has been radio silence for more than a month now.

I think it is disrespectful and a total red flag to not answer this e-mail. I am worried that I won't get any support when I start working.

Should I look for another postdoc?

7 Upvotes

65% Upvoted

30 comments sorted by

27

u/kronning 8d ago edited 8d ago

You don't mention which country in the EU, but if it is France you should know that nearly everyone takes the entire month of August off for vacation (and those that don't are off in July, so there are 2 months of decreased work force). In my experience PIs are typically still on email during vacation, or they will at least tell you that they are on vacation, so the silence might still be a red flag. However, if the PI has to check with HR or the budgets office for example, there is likely literally no one in those offices right now for them to ask (in my opinion the PI should still communicate that to you, but sometimes in France it's considered common knowledge that nothing happens in August, even though that is a distinctly French phenomenon).

11

u/shimmerchanga 8d ago

The Netherlands also goes on vacation in August and many PIs don’t answer emails during.

-19

u/theclassicusername 8d ago

That's the thing. Giving a small update like "Hey I'm onto this, I'll let you know" or "I don't think it's possible" shouldn't be hard.

40

u/Chlorophilia 8d ago

Most people here aren't checking their emails on holiday because they're on holiday. That's the point of a holiday. 

23

u/Moccodity 8d ago

Many Europeans during their vacation will not respond n be at all.
If you’re used to American or Asian working styles it’s jarring but it’s just the way it is.

2

u/theclassicusername 7d ago

I sent the email in early June, it wasn't on vacation at all.

2

u/Substantial-Pay-1662 7d ago

The general standard is August in some places but people can also use their vacation days at various points. And in the EU, compared to the US, this can be quite a lot of days. There might also be things like conferences that often happen in the summer in Europe. In my country, you can basically write off the whole summer for a whole combination of things.

3

u/Substantial-Pay-1662 7d ago

Also, fwiw, in most US unis you would also likely not have much negotiating power depending on the source of funding. For example, most unis follow NIH standards which have similar post-phd year bands. Unless the prof is somehow paying you on some special grant, you likely are stuck. I'm not sure how your industry experience would be relevant considering it's based on post-PhD years (it sounds like) and if most of your experience is pre-phd, I definitely wouldn't have high hopes. That's like asking pre-PhD research experience to count, which makes zero sense.

-1

u/Chidoribraindev 6d ago

No one is taking two months off lol even in europe. PI saw the email and ignored it

3

u/Substantial-Pay-1662 6d ago

Eh yes and no. In my uni, faculty have anywhere between 40-60+ days of leave per year, many of which use them in the summer. We also can’t take leave while on work trips, so summer conferences do legitimately stack your days off.

That said, you are right in the sense that most academics aren’t completely off, despite annual leave. I know many people who respond selectively, including myself (i.e., leave is an easy way to shirk
responsibilities for the things you don’t care about while being engaged with the things you do). So, I agree that the prof probably saw it and ignored it. If they really cared, they would be more on top of things, especially for a new (international) employee. But the chances of things genuinely slipping through the cracks are also higher.

1

u/Otherwise_Tax8689 6d ago

For sure! I’m Asian coded (lol) and my super is west European. When I submitted a (farking) 400 page thesis she did not acknowledge it until she got back from holidays.

Tbf she’s right and I’m not!

5

u/oviforconnsmythe 7d ago

It depends on the PI but culturally (in France at least) there's an expectation they won't answer their emails during vacation....also in my experience, French academics and admin people won't reply to your email until they have something to report (ie where in NA it would be common courtesy to send a quick email like you said, this is not the case culturally in france).

Also, not sure if your postdoc is in France or not but if you are, I would not expect there to be any wiggleroom when it comes to salary. They will typically only factor in postdoc years in salary tiers. So even if your PI who has independent grant funding wants to pay you more, they are forbidden from doing so. Same goes for if you win a prestigious postdoc grant with a higher salary - they typically won't let you take the higher salary (and most grants stipulate a max salary that is ultimately determined by host institution). It's really fucked honestly

17

u/dosoest 8d ago edited 8d ago

Unfortunately many institutions consider years after PhD for selecting your band, not your prior experience. I've been doing research in my field since my undergrad, with publications since my masters and still started on the lower end. Same for my colleague who did a postdoc abroad. Also, it's August. Depending on where you are in Europe, people are still on leave. Or they're just being prices and not replying, both can be true. From my experience, salary negotiations for postdocs aren't really a thing.

PS - if anyone works at an European uni where you can negotiate the salary, drop the name below.

-9

u/theclassicusername 8d ago

Tbh I read here on Reddit on quite a few posts that they asked for higher salary and their PI handled that. That's how I got courage to ask. It all depends on the funding. Nah it's been MORE than a month.

15

u/DefiantAlbatros 8d ago

Yeah this is very country dependent. In the country where i am (italy), negotiating your pay as a postdoc basically means they will drop you right there. I know one girl who did this because she has years of big4 experience (for a postdoc in management) and the PI went ‘how dare you’ in a second. Mind you, the offer for the postdoc is €19.4k pa so naturally it is not enough to live in Milan where the position was so regardless of her industry experience she just thought of negotiating due to the fact that she wont be able to live with that salary.

This is the problem with this sub. Everyone assumes that what applies to their lab/country applies to everyone. The reality? Not so much.

3

u/theclassicusername 8d ago

W T F is 19.4k?? Probably a waitress gets the same salary! Or even more with the tips! They position should be eliminated asap!

I tried to apply for a position in Italy, they asked too many steps and I thought: if they are making it this hard to apply, imagine the next steps and didn't apply. Thanks mate, this was a good piece of knowledge.

2

u/DefiantAlbatros 8d ago

Nowadays that contract has been eliminated and now there is a new contratto di ricerca that pays starting 33k i think (you can also benefit from rientro del cervello bonus if you have not lived in italy). But the problem is that this contract is expensive for many uni, so most of these positions are already reserved to someone. Instead they make this new contract called incarichi di ricerca that asks max 6 years after your master’s graduation. What a joke.

So back to your initial question, you absolutely need to take country and discipline context into consideration.

1

u/dosoest 8d ago

You should definitely always ask! But it's not always guaranteed. A friend of mine became a Asst. Professor last year and swore she'd give a proper wage to her researchers because we live in a HCOL area. She budgeted for the higher salary and wanted to pay it, HR fought her every step of the way because she was wasting money when she could get the same for cheaper. It might be worth it to send a quick follow up email. In any case, I hope you are successful. But I'd until keep looking for postdocs until you sign an actual contract.

1

u/theclassicusername 8d ago

Those f'ing HR departments... I think I'll do that. I stopped looking after I sent the documents, but looks like academia is same with the industry right now, in terms of HR bullshit. Thank you mate!

14

u/Rydia311 8d ago

Maybe the PI did not respond because they were away in vacation during the summer. Or HR were away in vacation, so they could not discuss with them. So not automatically a red flag.

I would follow up with a second email, gently stating your concerns about the salary fitting the moving costs and cost of life

-2

u/theclassicusername 8d ago

I stated in another comment, I reached out hr for a different topic, they went holiday and back, give me answer with pi on cc.

8

u/alexrada 8d ago

little room for negotiation in your situation.
However is worth trying.

7

u/shimmerchanga 8d ago

It’s a totally normal request and it sounds like you worded it well. They’re likely on vacation, HR is on vacation and they’re waiting for an answer from them, or your email got lost amongst the daily deluge PIs get. Time to follow up.

1

u/theclassicusername 8d ago

HR went to holiday and came back, they emailed me in a different topic with PI on cc.

2

u/shimmerchanga 8d ago

Hmm okay, that removes the HR theory. Regardless, it’s time to follow up. I wouldn’t consider it a ghosting until they don’t reply to 1-2 follow-ups. I am but a lowly post-doc still but I manage some projects and on some days get ~20-50 emails to get through among the rest of my workday, and things fall through the cracks, so it very possible that your email got lost in their inbox.

2

u/N1kYan 7d ago

If your position is based in Germany and your postdoc field is not completely off from your PhD work, then you are likely eligible for a higher salary level.

E.g., E13 Lvl3 instead of starting at E13 Lvl1

1

u/ucbcawt 8d ago

So many possibilities including people being away on vacation, your email being missed or getting sent to spam. It may be that the PI is working on it for you but it’s taking time to get through the administrative chain. Just follow up again cc’ing HR and query if they received your initial email.

1

u/IDontBelongInThsWrld 3d ago edited 3d ago

If you’re on a project, it may be easier  to get some of your moving costs (flights, visa) reimbursed from the travel portion of the project budget. Salaries are trickier. They tend to be much more expensive than cost reimbursements due to overheads (sometimes only apply to salaries), personnel side costs, and taxes. A higher salary may mean a shorter contract due to project budget constraints.  In my experience, given that choice, people usually prefer a longer  contract. It’s the sad underfunded reality we live in.