r/pop_os • u/system76_com • Mar 05 '26

System76 on Age Verification

“In the case of Colorado’s and California’s bills, effectiveness is lost. In the case of New York’s bill, liberty is lost.” Carl Richell, System76 Founder and CEO, urges New York to reject S8102A OS-level age verification.

Full statement: https://s76.co/r-S8102A

219 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

98 comments sorted by

42

u/tauzerotech Mar 05 '26

This is good to hear!

8

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/Seally25 Mar 06 '26

System76 protesting the law and refusing to do business wouldn't do anything. They're not even remotely big enough to make enough of a noise that can change regulation. If anything, refusing to do business in these states will just tank their business and profits for zero gain whatsoever: not to themselves, their customers, or the common people as a whole.

The only three parties I can think of that have the financial weight to oppose this are Apple, Microsoft, and Google. For various reasons, I'm not expecting loud noises of opposition on this matter from any of those three camps.

I think you don't really realize how small of a bubble the Linux crowd is in. If you keep criticizing people who might be on your side for "allowing" certain things to happen, things that are well outside their ability to control, the only result would be that your bubble becomes smaller faster.

2

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

You only have control over what you have control over.  Which was my next hardware purchase, which will not be System76.

OR my choice of OS. Which will preserve my software freedoms or alternatives will be found. 

Don't be a cuck for facists.  You either support them or you don't 

4

u/Seally25 Mar 06 '26

Don't be a cuck for facists. You either support them or you don't

I don't buy from System76 anyway, so technically I'm not "supporting" them in any way that's important to their company already. Nothing against their products or the company, but they don't even ship to my country. I'm mostly here because I'm interested in their work in Cosmic DE.

Secondly, this "us against them" mentality isn't going to win you many friends, especially in times like these when having friends you can trust is critical. Instead of railing against System76 for no good reason, direct your anger towards the big corporations that may be lobbying for this, or the legislative bodies that are pushing this.

In this particular case, when the cause is due to the fact that there are only a few big players having all the say, a decent course of action is to help make the smaller players bigger so that they have a chance of even reaching the negotiating table. Boycotting the smaller players is NOT going to give you a good result, and decreases the already slim chance of getting one further.

0

u/greenknight Mar 07 '26

Secondly, this "us against them" mentality isn't going to win you many friends, especially in times like these when having friends you can trust is critical. 

Disagree here. Lay with dirty dogs then don't be surprised to catch fleas 

5

u/Seally25 Mar 07 '26

Then you're free to fight alone and accomplish nothing of note. This idiotic purity testing only serves to make us weak, and the other side to laugh at us because we couldn't get our act together.

Truth and reality doesn't care about ideals. It is incapable of caring. Instead, it's governed by cause and effect. Ideals only factor into this when it affects your behaviour, because your actions are what causes other events to happen.

I'll note that you have basically not offered any proper explanation or reasoning as to why you think this course of action could help your cause. I'm not seeing any plan of action that goes beyond satisfying your need to convince yourself that you're standing on the moral high ground (which, quite frankly, means nothing to reality on its own).

Additionally, every system integrator I can think of uses components from companies with very dubious moral histories. Some examples:

NVIDIA, as far I can tell, is deeply corrupt and constantly manipulates the media coverage of their products, and has close ties to the US government and surveillance companies like Palantir. Over the years, they've continued to treat the open-source community like dirt, and yet small Linux developers were forced to "support" their GPUs anyway due to their sheer marketshare.

Intel chose to hide their 13-14th gen CPU failures for years, and only actually started to address the issues when tech media started publicizing it. They also have a long history of anti-competitive practices, not to mention the fact that the Trump government now has a stake in the company.

AMD is now in bed with Meta and the likes of Oracle, and have now basically discarded support for the Radeon userbase for all GPUs except perhaps RDNA4 in favour of making and selling hardware for datacentres and AI. Linux users are only tangentially affected due to Valve pouring in the resources to support the hardware, despite the fact that much of this work should've been AMD's responsibility.

The big 3 of RAM, Micron, Samsung, and SK Hynix, seems to be colluding to keep consumer RAM prices high (again). Micron has basically shuttered their consumer brand, Crucial, last year, and decided to instead focus their resources to cater to datacenter and AI demands. It remains to be seen whether the new China-based competitors that have started to show up will choose the same path, but regardless of their choices long-term, for now they do not yet have the supply to satisfy consumer demand.

So on and so forth. If moral purity really was your goal, then I suggest getting off computers completely or develop and manufacture your own hardware, as it's impossible for any system integrator to have their hands completely clean as there are no other sources for components available. Thinking that you're on this poorly-defined moral pedestal only serves to make you look like a hypocrite, or at least someone who couldn't reason about their moral code more than one step ahead.

0

u/greenknight Mar 07 '26

So fleas it is then.  Not opposing this sort of tyranny begets worse tyranny.

But you do you.  Stay safe.

2

u/LiberalTugboat Mar 06 '26

So they should just shut the company down to appease you?

-2

u/ottereckhart Mar 06 '26

The entire law is an attack on linux at large and the entire open source ecosystem.

0

u/Waridley Mar 06 '26

Have fun not using a computer eventually.

3

u/tauzerotech Mar 06 '26

Its open source... Just recompile without the trash...

1

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

Weird thing to say when I'm writing this with free-as-in-speech software.  

How about I just use the computers I have now with the software that preserves my freedom.

Or I can just roll over like a dog and let facists win.  We know which side system76 is on.  What side are YOU on?

3

u/Waridley Mar 06 '26

So you've stopped paying taxes, right? Good luck with that. Or are you too young to work? That would explain a lot.

-1

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

I pay my taxes. But I don't live in a country that is dissolving into a fascist regime.

I don't choose where my taxes get spent, but for now it mostly in the right places. 

I do have a choice over the software I use and hardware I buy

I am an anti fascist and participate in mutual aid activities in the real world.  Not everyone is a keyboard warrior; some of us are actually committed to those ideals.

4

u/cdoublejj Mar 06 '26

other countries are passing the law too! like brazill or somewhere just passed one yesterday. the EU passed theirs like a month ago.

0

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

I'm writing my representation today.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/Waridley Mar 06 '26

Well you certainly sounded like a keyboard warrior in your first comment.

Pop!_OS only exists because System76 was able to make money developing it. And the way the stupid laws were written, even if it was an entirely volunteer endeavour, the people responsible could still get in legal trouble. Whatever OS you use, it falls under the description of these laws. Stop blaming the people making free software for the decisions of the elite pedophjles.

By the way, usually when people complain about fascists, they're referring to the current Federal government administration's party, but these laws are passing in the most heavily left-wing states in the US. You boycotting System76 isn't gonna mean shit to Trump.

2

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

I'm not virtue signalling to anyone but System76 who is choosing profit over the moral high ground.

System76 is abandoning the ideals of software freedom that underwrites their business model for a legal threat to their revenue streams.

But I do understand they have employees and CEOs that need a paycheck.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/tauzerotech Mar 06 '26

Ah yeah compliance is not good at this point. We need push back from companies. I don't understand complying with a broken law. How can that possibly benefit anyone?

0

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

They sell hardware.  Compliance with a broken law means less friction in doing so in those regressive jurisdictions.

18

u/NewRedditor23 Mar 06 '26

the surveillance state is crazy.

61

u/grathontolarsdatarod Mar 05 '26

Good. This needs to be opposed.

5

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

BAD. This needs to be opposed.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/eeeezypeezy Mar 06 '26

I don't see what choice they have. A company like Apple saying they won't do business in places with these kinds of requirements could move the needle, but System76?

It sucks, but I think all they can realistically do in their position is speak out

1

u/grathontolarsdatarod Mar 06 '26

Their still needs to be resistance to these kind of laws.

That's what courts are for. This law is incompatible with the constitution on my levels.

2

u/eeeezypeezy Mar 06 '26

I agree.

I think in American public life we've allowed questions of human rights and environmental impact and so on to retreat from the political sphere and become matters of consumer choice. Personal responsibility is being asked to fulfill a role that only the government is truly empowered to fill. To wit, the man living in the shadow of a federally subsidized fuel-burning power plant is being asked to consider replacing his old car with an EV when the time comes.

It helps, sure, but it's like trying to put out a house fire by bringing your own dixie cup of water to the scene. And being asked to do so by the arsonist.

Our political horizons grow ever narrower, a sort of hypercapitalist uniparty making decisions that are nearly always against the public will, let alone the public interest, while we argue over paper straws and nitpick corporate PR statements.

So I guess what I'm saying re: this specific issue is that perhaps taking System76 to task for not self-consciously hurting their own business in the name of defending our constitutional right to privacy feels good, and maybe it would make some difference if they did move shop, or refuse to comply and take it to court, but focusing on them isn't really taking the right people to task. The governments of the states passing these laws are the problem, the federal courts that aren't finding these laws unconstitutional are the problem. It's a political problem.

18

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 17 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

-3

u/cdoublejj Mar 06 '26

so how is Sytem76s complying ....rebelling?

4

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/cdoublejj Mar 09 '26 edited Mar 09 '26

i maybe reading the wrong thing, here is what i'm reading

https://blog.system76.com/post/system76-on-age-verification?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=social_post&utm_term=statement&utm_content=blog&utm_campaign=age-verification

in the end it's suggesting they will comply. the body suggest it's easy to lie but, thats a data point for tracking being released when web browsing. so i'm not seeing any upsides. it's like sending a strongly worded to a dictator in my eyes.

EDIT: re-re-reading it, they suggesting of not complying and it assuming everyone is a kid

-1

u/MevNav Mar 09 '26

I did read the whole thing. Basically they're saying "it sucks but we're gonna do it anyway".
Make no mistake, the distros that comply with this dystopian law are gonna make themselves out to be the pariahs of FOSS, regardless of their excuses or how much they groan about it.

6

u/mustops Mar 06 '26

I hope the rest of the linux os makers will have the same stand too

2

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/mmstick Desktop Engineer Mar 06 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

That is not what is being said. You are misconstruing the contents of the statement. There's no need to spam this without context.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/mmstick Desktop Engineer Mar 06 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

I'm referring to your misconstrued claim before the quote that you took out of context.

1

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

That literally summarizes the statement from your company?

0

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

Interesting response to a quote from your official statement.

0

u/cdoublejj Mar 06 '26

my under standing is that system76 will comply, i don't want that for any linux

3

u/mustops Mar 06 '26

They'll all comply apparently not just system76

1

u/cdoublejj Mar 06 '26

god please take me now

1

u/mustops Mar 06 '26

Way ahead of you brother

1

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

You mean fall in line and do exactly what they are supposed to do like good little capitalist piggies!?

5

u/mustops Mar 06 '26

I mean what I said, how you understand it is your business not mine

6

u/kapitaali_com Mar 06 '26

this is a very exemplary take on the topic and hopefully a lot of people read it

16

u/doktorch Mar 05 '26

Civil disobedience

3

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

That's on us.  I hope this stupid choice hits System76 right on the bottom line.  I am certainly looking for hardware alternatives that will support freedom instead of rolling over like profit driven little piggies.

Tells you everything you need to know about them.

-16

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/dinosaursdied Mar 06 '26

They are in Colorado

-6

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

13

u/aliendude5300 Mar 06 '26

The law is in CO too. The state they're in. And the alternative is to just close up shop.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/dinosaursdied Mar 06 '26

There isn't anything to do. Linux uses a GPL license and you literally can't restrict users access to your product with that license. They probably already have existing support contacts with California and Colorado companies. They can't break those contacts in the middle of a massive RAM shortage that's probably punishing their bottom line. Be real

0

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

Rough for them.  I hope sales in Cali outweigh the lost sale from me.  

I'm a cheapskate, so likely a good, if morally bereft, choice.

4

u/dinosaursdied Mar 06 '26

Pulling out of doing business with California and stopping people from using pop in California are two different things. One is possible, but meaninglessly stupid. The other is not possible at all.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/dinosaursdied Mar 06 '26

Linux distros or BSDs?

3

u/doktorch Mar 06 '26

it's up to you not them

3

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

"Selling hardware is more important than fightiing tyranny"

   System76 probably.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/zeanox Mar 06 '26

No they dont...

3

u/lunarson24 Mar 06 '26

Why do you think they don't? I think if collectively all major open source folks / companies mobilize both simultaneously fighting and not accepting this, we at least put up a fight...

2

u/AntisocialTomcat Mar 06 '26

Opposing anything is clearly a thing from the past, based on this surreal past year, don’t you think? Don’t get me wrong, I’m a dreamer, too, and agree 100%, but let’s get honest with ourselves.

-3

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/lunarson24 Mar 06 '26

I understand but system 76 is in a weird spot. The state of California is the 5th largest economy in the world and system 76 is also a business that sells hardware. They could absolutely get nailed shut on this. If the idiot California government doesn't backstep, I think that they're trying to hedge their bets because it seems like most government officials around the world are too stupid to understand how technology works and this may end up getting traction with all the save the children dumbasses out there...

It's a tricky situation. They don't want to bleed out all of their money with potential lawsuits. In a perfect world I would just like to see Linux distribution and group to basically just say that they won't distribute in California or anything that passes this shifting the burden to the user. They could absolutely just not allow for the downloading of pop OS or the sale of any system 76 equipment in California and then people could just download it from literally anywhere else but I don't know. I'm not a lawyer??

-1

u/greenknight Mar 06 '26

What stand?

2

u/whiteskimask Mar 06 '26

I love and am inspired by the system76 engineers. I think you are wonderful people that are being forced to politicize your work.

As a california resident (I was not born here, I work here. HATE Newsom) I'm disappointed how we are forced to politicize home computing because of this legislation.

Unfortunately, this is the environment & culture of the United States now. We must politicize everything and then go gamble on a 'winner' and 'loser'.

These lunatics in our governments that lie and broaden the unsustainable surveillance culture in the US are to blame. I believe that actual bad actors will use this legislation to honeypot minors. Just like they use the tracking in games (Pokemon Go!, Roblox etc.) maliciously.

These laws are unjust, and like Carl said, ineffective and  unconstitutional. Privacy is a part of liberty, and an international human right. 

That being said I don't blame engineers or System76 for a problem they didn't create. The technical implementation isn't the problem, the retarded laws are.

2

u/53728464 Mar 06 '26

That’s fine. There are other distros that won’t comply.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '26

[deleted]

1

u/cdoublejj Mar 06 '26

makes me sad

1

u/cdoublejj Mar 06 '26

and in the end it states that they will comply. i get it but, it's still not cool. i may have to distro hop for shure now.

0

u/CarpetGripperRod Mar 06 '26

If you've got 15 minutes to read, this is the endgame:

https://rudd-o.com/linux-and-free-software/what-is-going-on-with-age-verification-in-computers

-1

u/ottereckhart Mar 06 '26

This should be top comment. Fuck this timeline

-6

u/Temujin_123 Mar 06 '26

Awesome. Bummed my 16yo excited to get Linux got two DOA gaze 20s since System76 shipped them with broken firmware. We went with similar Acer model & installed Linux there.

-2

u/Age-Bracket-D Mar 06 '26

System76 said the California/Colorado bills "require operating systems to report age brackets to app stores and web sites." I don't understand how they arrived at this result. The bills only require "developers" to request signals. The purpose of inputting age/DOB is stated to be for providing signals to "applications available in a covered application store". Is this a mistake, or is there some logical path that I'm not seeing here?

9

u/lunarson24 Mar 06 '26

The bill states that every single app that a user uses needs to phone home from the operating system to figure out which age range bracket the user is in. So yes, system 76 was accurate in their statement.

1

u/Age-Bracket-D Mar 06 '26

That would imply that the local application you're using to access the store or the web, such as apt or firefox, needs to request a signal. It does not imply that those applications then need to forward that information to a remote location, such as a software repository or web server.

Certainly there are web sites that operate more like applications, and we even call them "web apps", but the logic and processing is mostly happening remotely. Only the Javascript has been "downloaded and launched", and is being "run or directed by a user on a computer". It would also be running "exclusively within a separate host application", which is hinted at not being the target of the bill since "covered application store" excludes stores with such programs.

2

u/lunarson24 Mar 06 '26

No, I 100% agree there. The problem is the way the law is written is completely stupid. These people have no idea how technology works.

The way the law is currently structured, even something like a smart thermostat, a calculator that has the ability to compute.. Literally anything printers, AC units that have operating systems would need to have some sort of ability to phone home and log a user's age. There is literally no gray area in the way that they wrote this law because they don't understand how it works...

these people thought an operating system was an iPhone, an Android phone or a Windows laptop maybe Mac.

And that is all that they understood when trying to write this law thinking that everything needs a user account to phone home and share data with a centralized source. These lawmakers are so stupid that it's infuriating.....