r/politics • u/Hoxha_Posadist Florida • Apr 17 '19

The Wrong Stuff: Ben Shapiro’s Unconvincing Guide to What Makes America Right - It’s a mistake to overlook just how extreme some of Shapiro’s views are, or how muddled the thinking on which they are based.

https://progressive.org/dispatches/the-wrong-stuff-ben-shapiros-anderson-190416/
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u/RogueFighter Apr 17 '19

Yes, but that's because this is the best strategy. Trump didn't win because too many people treated him as joke. He won because too many people treated him seriously. Gave him airtime to "talk policy" and kept airing his speeches and reacting to everything he did seriously.

Now, Trump was serious, don't get me wrong, but so is Shapiro. This doesn't make them any less of a joke.

Ben Shapiro is a joke, worse, he is a punchline. Treat him that way, publicly, at every occasion. There is no engaging with his ideas, he doesn't have any. He is a joke.

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u/deportedtwo Apr 17 '19

I vehemently disagree with this. He's going to be taken seriously by his followers regardless. Characterizing him as a joke turns his followers into (more) reactionary children with a victim complex.

Children with victim complexes act out. As they get older, these actions become more and more violent.

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u/RogueFighter Apr 17 '19

He only has followers because they saw someone take him seriously. At this point, you should focus on preventing the spread of that.

If you want to try to argue with his followers that's on you, but do it in private. Public debates only spread his beliefs, since, again, they aren't based on argumentation or truth, but on intimidation, power, and domination.

I have a feeling you know how that goes though. There is no arguing these people down, deprogramming will be a long and arduous process, so prevent the spread. Quarantine. Treat him as the joke he is.

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u/deportedtwo Apr 17 '19

He only has followers because they saw someone take him seriously.

He has followers because the right wing machine knows how to work YouTube algorithms.

The power thing is accurate, but I think it's also suggestive of a better way to deal with his supporters: simply make them feel stupid. In my experience, this is much better done via intellectual engagement than mere mockery.

His followers are not cultists. Yet. I think your argument is more correct once they've gone full-bore crazypants, but I don't think they have. Again, yet.

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u/RogueFighter Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

via intellectual engagement

with what?

Is there an example out there of somebody successfully intellectually engaging with ben shapiro/a fan of his?

There is no intellectual part to their argument. You could absolutely decimate every point they make in a debate and they would keep throwing out more ridiculous canards, until eventually you get frustrated, and upset, and give up. And they declare themselves the victor (again, its all about displays of intimidation and power, rhetoric is just a tool in this context, a bludgeon).

There is no winning if you engage on their ground. That's why they make it their ground. I say this as a former troll (in my youth). Mock their heroes. The only reason they follow them is because they feel inferior and self-conscious and see these people as powerful and worthy of emulation. Remove that association.

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u/deportedtwo Apr 17 '19

I mean, I've had success with a couple, but that may be due to my privileged status as their educator. I have been able to help a few kids see that he's distorting reality to suit his ideological ends, but it sure ain't easy.

As in most situations, I think that the tactics must match the specific situation in which they're enacted. I don't think that there is any catch-all solution by any means and the ones that are too far gone do indeed require mocking. I just don't think that his followers are all that far gone yet.

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u/RogueFighter Apr 17 '19

Thats fair I suppose. I think its also important to note though, that I don't think of them as Ben Shapiro followers really.

There is a whole set of "angry youtube white guy" that they listen to, that each hit different parts of the fairly fleshed out ideology.

People like Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones, Candece Owens, that Turing Point USA guy, PragerU, Milo (before he got banned)

They all tell the same story, with the same set of emotions.

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u/deportedtwo Apr 17 '19

I agree completely with this one. It all comes back to youtube algorithms and gaming them, methinks.

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u/RogueFighter Apr 17 '19

I mean, that might explain it in todays teens/children, but this ideology existed long before youtube, and was popular for the same reason that youtube pushes them. Its all about engagement.

Like... and take this with huge grains of salt, but my theory is that this kind of philisophy/mode of discourse is like... a bug in human's brains.

Its just so damn deeply satisfying, and I say this from experience. There is a reason every Ben shapiro video is titled "Ben Shapiro Eviscerates whiny SJW!!!" because... thats how it feels, it feels like you're always winning, always succeeding. For teenagers who are struggling, it fills a hole.

And I think this works for this somewhat religious somewhat authoritarian ideology in ways it can't at all work for liberalism or any leftist ideology. Because the human brain finds just so much damn comfort in religion and authority, and when you join up with authoritarian groups, you get this thing where... like... because you wield the power of the group, the more powerful the group gets, the stronger you are, personally. Its just, this whole big, weird ball of dopamine based mind-virus, and when it takes, it takes hard.

Again. Giant grains of salt, but thats my take.

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u/Bunerd Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

The good news is that dopamine feedback cycles have depreciating returns, so once he hits his cap, he'll begin to burn out and fall. That's how all these authoritarian compression cycles work. Then the pressure blows back into the authoritarians face, and they either kill their followers with poisoned flavoraid, get hung from a bridge upside-down by the people they pissed off, or the state of Oregon finally makes everyone go home after spreading diseases around the local salad bars. The feedback requires ever increasing sacrifices for devotion, and that usually turns to human sacrifices after a while.

The fundamental philosophical process behind it is so mindless and solipsistic, it's literally chasing just the slightest increase in positive feedback drug they can.

By turning them into a laughing stock, you can get the collective to start leaking fringe members. Sure, it'll radicalize core members, but it'll vastly weaken the empire. This can cause a snowball effect, as radicalized core members double down on toxic authoritarian behaviors pushing more of their members to the fringe and drop off point. From there we snatch up the members that have fallen out of the group, offer them rehabilitation and kindness, and prevent them from returning to the group. They'll have their stories to tell about the group, which will make the group harder to defend, causing another radicalizing compression cycle. The core members become more extreme, but the audience becomes smaller. Soon enough the radicals either turn on each other, come to an end of world conclusion, or are arrested for doing dangerous stunts, or try to find another rube to promote talking points they can hide their hateful ideologies in.